Can anyone tell me where Jim Pearce operates from, please? Has he a website, or a company?
“…As for your thoughts on a flying scale Wellington…
Well, Vega – I did say it was just an idea! ::highly_amused: It did raise a few smiles, as you can imagine…but as the old adage goes, “Nothing’s impossible…” (Just damned expensive!) That idea would very much be a last-ditch effort if all other avenues became closed…
Time will indeed tell if this whole plot becomes viable; we do have reservations, sure, but we’re determined to at least have a good go at it, and hopefully get it snowballing by taking it just one decent step at a time and grow it however we can.
Thanks again for the comments – all opinions are valid! 😉
He’s a museum owner, SADSACK, and paid far too much for it (though he did buy a lot more secondary stuff with it), so he’s understandably seeking to recoup some of his expense. Time will tell, and he might relent one day… 😉
Vega ECM – Each channel was rolled from flat through an array of rollers, each altering the eventual C-shape into a curved length that was pre-set into the micrometer gauges on each adjuster wheel – effectively, the rolling machine was the “Grandaddy” of all CNC-type machinery in use today… designed, built & used in mass production long before computers were even invented. There were about 10,000 drawings of the complete Wellington – no idea how many for the airframe alone – but every section was made separately in the rolling mill, then fitted into a jig and rivetted together.
Those butterfly connectors were aluminium pressings, and the outer connector plates were stamped out by the thousands…
The old joke of “300,000 rivets flying in close formation”, eh? 😉
By-the-way – PowerandPassion – you asked about the connection between geodetic cross-points? Here’s a photo of the joint – as far as I’m aware, it’s the same as the Wellesley in principle, though might be slightly beefed up as the “MK2” descendant of the Wellesley (design improvements, etc…) – I believe this piece is ex-L7775, too – hence it’s twisted damage…
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Thanks, chaps – all comments very much appreciated!
Well, I had set up that Facebook Page nearly two years ago, but left it quiet until we got our house sale & move dealt with. During that first unpublicised year, it gained a tiny 32 “Likes” from friends…but as soon as we had settled and tidied up, I edited its ‘mission statement’ to: “Can a Wellington ever fly again? Or is it just a flight of fantasy?”, and started sharing the Page to other Groups and Pages across that website as far and as fast as I could manage, just to test the public waters on a bigger scale than I could here; effectively, a discussion topic and a taster – that was all I had in mind, to begin with…
Amazingly, after less than one full year, it’s clocked up just under 2000 “Likes” – a figure that has staggered me, somewhat, but continues to encourage me (and my mad mates) to dig deep and cast around for help right across the globe, seeking advice and even spares, crash site locations – anything we could think of that might bear fruit, somehow – and I have to say that I have been greatly encouraged to keep going and trying, no matter how large or small this “project” may become, so much so that I later set up a Facebook Group, “Wellington Preservation Group”, to take care of those with a more enduring interest overall in the background interest in all the other smaller targets that we have in mind. That, too, has gained members at an astounding rate – 560+ at the latest count – and not all have crossed over from the other Page, to judge by the names lists.
Thus far, I have made contact with a decent technical adviser in CAA, received copyright permission from BAe (very recently, after a long search for the right person), set up ‘alliances’ with all manner of very experienced and helpful aviation restoration experts & technicians, metals suppliers, manufacturing companies – especially a firm that’s happy to roll off the channel sections required for the geodetics, which will bring down the overall complexity of our own rolling mill design somewhat to that of a channel-curving machine, effectively (though we’ll still be able to roll our own, if you’ll pardon the expression!). We’ve also established very good relations and moral support/working rapport with Brooklands Museum and others (with particular thanks to JT at Brooklands, for their ongoing support as things are progressing in ever-bigger stages between us), so we’re looking very positive for technical advice and support as we go.
The Facebook Page has listed a few ideas that have floated through my mind during this past year, ranging from a small to big ambitions. The initial idea of a mock cockpit for taking around to various events and shows has been gradually developing in my mind, and is aimed to give people an idea of what it would have been like to ‘fly’ a Wimpy – to be achieved, partially, by building-in a flight simulator set-up with one (or more) LCD screen(s) covering its canopy, using something like Microsoft’s FSX simulator (already donated!) fully connected to the control equipment, so that visitors can have a go at crashing a digital Wellington 🙂 amongst other things; I’ve even got a dummy front turret in mind to keep the kids (and smaller persons!) entertained by having a go at “daggadaggadagga!” playing…
I mentioned developing a serious interest, too, in a large-scale radio-controlled Wellington; there are several out there already, and the new owner of a fully-geodetic 1:4.5-scale Wimpy has expressed great interest in the idea of supporting the ‘project’ as well as he can manage…and another fully-geodetic 1:5th scale (all aluminium) Wimpy is on another drawing board, ready to go in a couple of years’ time. My interest with those stems from an idea that I had when watching US Air Force drones in action, recently – why not fit out such a large scale model with a set of cameras, installed in the pilot’s eye-view, and in both turrets? Make those cameras also movable on R/C gimbals to be operated by others on the ground, while the pilot is left to concentrate upon the delicate task of flying safely – and add to those cameras, another smaller one right up on the tail tip, all being projected on TV screens on the ground (perhaps inside the mock cockpit) for spectators to really enjoy a “flight”, as near exactly as it would have appeared to the crew in a real aircraft – in my mind, a very good “fall-back” option should a real flying Wellington prove to be unattainable, after all; indeed, it might prove to be the ONLY way we might experience what it was like to enjoy a Wellington in flight…
On the subject of “real” aircraft – flying or not – I have conferred with many technicians and engineers about various legalities and issues regarding design, building, flight and other connected, important issues, and everyone agrees that firstly, a full-scale exact reproduction of a Vickers Wellington would be extremely expensive (as everyone knows, anyway!), but technically ‘doable’, given umpteen years and sizeable donations from someone like Richard Branson or maybe Sir Peter Jackson, etc; not impossible, but certainly stretching the realms of possibility and probability…Until I mooted the notion of a scaled-down replica – say, about 2/3rd size – built to original design criteria & shapes to look exactly the same, but be constructed of modern composite materials in representation of the original design – things like honeycomb sandwich boarding, latticed carbon fibre, higher grade but thinner alloys, etc., etc. – and all of a sudden, I started getting “Hmm, yes…now I like the sound of that – much more achievable, given today’s technology…”
Well, that last notion is bound to upset rivet counters and purists, but still, it’s a workable option if an exact replica in original materials becomes unlikely… We’ll see – I’m in no rush to push that boundary.
…Leaving us with the growing likelihood of a ground-rolling replica, developed from copying existing parts, artefacts, wreckage (for patterns) & drawings – probably ending up with a MkIV, as I’ve been reliably informed by very knowledgeable sources that there are still plenty of Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp radials around the world – some still new in crates – thanks to the continuing maintenance and use of DC3s and a few C47s (plus a whole pile of other potential source airframes). I’ve also found a good reference source for parts universally-used in other aircraft similar to the Wellington, too, so we should be able to find enough non-airframe parts and piecemeal sections of geodetic panels to furnish it out (says he, hopefully, with fingers crossed…).
Maybe, perhaps, possibly, other establishments might offer to provide us with those wings & bits elsewhere as the project progresses – it’s a nice dream, but you never know – so it’s increasingly possible that we could construct a rolling memorial using many parts from crashed Wellingtons, each piece fitted into a structurally-sound tubular skeleton (as originally conceived from the very outset), and every bit commemorated and identified with a small plaque dedicated to the memory of those who perished at whatever crash site the relevant part came from.
L7775 has been espoused several times; as you know, the wings are at East Kirkby, and although I’ve contacted the museum, no promises have been made in any way, except initially for purpose of measurements & copying. The tail section at Moreton-In-Marsh…actually isn’t there any longer, but is now in Stratford Armouries Museum – and is NOT, in fact, from L7775, but from a crash site in Yorkshire. However, although the current owner offered the entire collection of tail-end parts recently, he wants a King’s Ransom for it, so unless he changes his mind, it’s out of reach… 🙁
Maybe, if we need a substantial lump of a tail section later, we might ask the Laird of L7775’s resting place if we might acquire it, as it’s still up there; maybe an option…but it isn’t that important; patterns and drawings are available for the tail section, etc. (though it would be nice to have such a chunk in place from an original).
Anyway – enough of the goal-setting; it’s been one heck of a brain-storming twelve months, and a colossal amount of discussion and negotiation has been going on in the background as more ideas have been floated, mooted, discounted, modified, expanded and discussed, and useful discoveries made – but we can do very little indeed until we get that base workshop, so that is our absolute priority, and we should be attending to that goal very imminently.
Thanks for your time and interest – please keep in touch, and keep your fingers crossed! 😉
Well, well, Wellington!
Well, now – I hadn’t expected to see this thread…but as it’s here, and so am I (following a nudge from a good friend), I thought I might just chuck in my opinion…as the “Chief Architect” of the Fly Again Wellington “project”…
Nice to know that there are some good supporters for the notion – as crazy and far-fetched as some others might say – and more than one commentator here has been reasonably fair with criticism of ‘our’ overall intention. I respect all the comments and opinions, and I thank you all most sincerely for your honest thoughts.
I started that “Can A Wellington Ever Fly Again” thread with the full knowledge that it would be a mammoth and hideously expensive ambition – and I knew it would come in for a great deal of derision, generating nay-sayers like they were going out of fashion, simply because of the sheer expense and overall complexity of such a project. I knew it would attract mick-takers and keen supporters in unbalanced measure, simply because it IS so ‘mad’ (as I’ve been quoted)…however, the intention of raising that thread was to inspire discussion in the hope of gaining decent support, but not necessarily from this Forum alone – hence the Facebook page…and mock that all ye wish, but it’s gaining interest in larger multiples by the week; sure, the majority ARE mainly armchair enthusiasts – but SOME wish to get directly involved, as soon as we can establish a very necessary base.
It’s clear that there are some knowledgeable technical experts on this Forum with very valid opinions, but we’d need a good deal more by way of positive-minded engineers and supporters to even start such a project…and perhaps not surprisingly, none have stood up to be counted and offer to volunteer. Hence, the “big plan” (as it’s been loosely described) has been temporarily shelved while efforts ARE being made for a workshop at Honeybourne, be it a small museum or a workshop – or maybe both (I don’t understand why some people think THAT won’t happen – but then, those people don’t know what’s going on in the grand scheme of things…). It won’t be a huge J-type hangar – probably not even a blister hangar – but all we need initially is a workshop big enough to house a forward section of a Wellington fuselage, for copying and working (and yes, a geodetic rolling mill is in CAD design, ready for manufacture when we’re ready), so SOME plans are rolling… (Excuse the intended pun! 😉 )
Talking of “rolling”… There is a contingency plan involving many of the ideas already mooted within this thread and my original version, in that – should we fail to persuade enough people that a flying Wimpy is indeed viable, and therefore becomes unattainable for whatever reason -then we would happily settle for a ground-rolling, taxyable replica. Why?
A quote from ‘Creaking Door’ (respect due to your thoughts, CD – they echo mine!):
“It would be possible to manufacture a steel space-frame for fuselage and wings then clad this in wooden formers and fabric as in the original; the added advantage being that the shape of the Wellington lends itself very well to this and from the outside it would look pretty convincing (depending on the care that was taken with detail). You could source or fabricate functional undercarriage, fit (nearly) authentic Bristol Hercules engines so that it would sound right and fit enough genuine Wellington detail where it will show ‘around the edges’.
There would be problems to overcome and it wouldn’t be cheap by any stretch of the imagination, would need a large hangar to store it and people would have to come and see it rather that it being able to visit shows but…
…all those things would be equally true of a ‘real’ Wellington that could taxi…..and this must be cheaper!”
There you have it, in this particular instance: cheaper!
Sure, not as soul-satisfying as seeing a Wellington back in the air at airshows, etc., but a ground-roller would certainly fulfil my own keen intention to build a moving memorial to all those scrapped airframes (many so, from Honeybourne, by irony!) and the thousands of aircrew who flew in them – slightly better so than a pair of static examples in museums, in our opinion. The sight and sound of a taxying Wellington would stir the blood of many enthusiasts, and I, personally, would be happy with that achievement if flying was an absolute “no-chance dance”. Let’s face it, it’s all about managing realistic expectations, when it comes down to it. Maybe we’ll only end up with another museum, maybe it will flourish and blow away everyone’s negativity – we don’t know…but we’re going to give it a damned good try!
Oddly enough, the CAA have responded quite positively, and BAe haven’t said “No”, either, so I don’t rule out the future wish of airworthiness. Funding? Well, that’s certainly a massive undertaking – but again, not impossible if enough efforts are made in the right way, with the right approach – if only we can get solid support from enough people…so, if all the nay-sayers of this world might expend the same energy saying “Yes” to such ambitious ideas, instead of “Don’t be bloody daft, mate – it’ll never work”, then we’d ALL get our varied projects working, one way or another, eh?
There is undoubtedly a long way to go until we can get a plan together – a full and proper plan, that is, designed from the outset by all the right engineering experts who know a thing or two about aircraft restoration…so who amongst our supporters and critics will step forward and be counted, when the time comes? Who knows, eh?
The whole point, though, wasn’t to declare that we ARE going to build a flying Wellington, but simply to open minds and invite discussion that we’d LIKE to build one (hopefully to fly)…so how about that, folks? Why not give this the benefit of the massive doubt, and give it a chance with some positive suggestions rather than total annihilation before it’s even begun?
Pretty please?
Is there any way of contacting him, or perhaps he has someone here assisting with ‘business’? Or is it closed down for the winter, now?
…And the Pikeys do well in Essex… 😉
Odd, that – I’d seen a thread via Google that declared that the B25 had been sold to Barry Parkhouse for £15,000 when it was shifted to his current abode…?
…And you’re right, Blue 2 – “you don’t ask, you don’t get!”, and my favourite old chestnut quote, “Nothing ventured, nothing gained”…unless, Sqdn Leader Jack Ruskin, you know for absolute 100% rock-solid-certain that it’s absolutely definitely not for sale…and can prove it? 😉
The way I see things is that if there’s history in an airframe, and if enough people are interested in supporting such a project, then it could be well worth enquiring if it MIGHT, possibly, maybe p’rhaps be acquirable, IF Mr P’ might be amenable to such a wild notion. We’ll see…
I know this thread’s an old one, but has anyone got an e-mail address for Barry? I’ve been trying hard to contact him by tracing phone numbers via Google (got them, but no answers! 🙁 ), so the next best way is via e-mail, as I haven’t the time to go on a speculative visiting trip right now.
If Bedsheet Bomber is still there, my little mob might just have enough interest to negotiate acquisition for restoration to one level or another (poor ol’ gal, eh?) 😉
XF799 is currently listed for sale here – gog get it!!!
For anyone still interested in this project, things are ticking along quite nicely now – a visit to Brooklands to meet Julian Temple and some of his colleagues proved very beneficial, with names, lists & potential leads all springing forth as hoped…and I left there in an extremely buoyant and positive frame of mind, with the “endorsement” from the Museum for this ‘build’ venture! OK, so an ‘endorsement’ isn’t a full pledge of support, nor is it full backing – but it’s just nice to know that the technical & moral support is there when we’ll need it…
I’m meeting with several people & sources now, in order to see what can be collected together and/or remade, and as it’s still very much a feasibility study, it’s obviously vital to know what we’ll be getting into in depth, before we start talking about finances, etc.
Still, it’s looking more positive than I’d expected in such a short space of time (even the Facebook Page now has over 660 “Likes”! Can’t be bad, eh?), so I’m persevering and searching wider & deeper.
Anyone else feel like chipping in, yet? 😉
Thanks for the tip-off, Stewart – I’ll look into it as soon as I get the chance! :eagerness:
In truth, given the scarcity of Hercules engines (in any fit state for use, anyway), there’s a high probabilty that if the project gets going and we reach that stage, then we’d use whatever engines that were available that could be fitted (into a modified wing cradle, if need be) to look right. As has been suggested, Twin Wasp engines are more plentiful, and a version was produced with those engines during WW2, so it’s acceptable even to purists.
A Merlin/Griffon-engined variant could also be considered if the budget allowed (and if such engines could be diverted or prised away from jealous Spitfire builders! 😉 ), but morally, given that the vast majority of Wellingtons were radial engine powered, I feel that that should be the target when it comes to commemorating the majority of aircrew who flew in them; a minor issue, sure [and the detail won’t hold up a build-up if there’s really a limited choice], but a small point we’re trying to maintain.
The wings are another point for the “purists” – I agree that they really ought to be original-pattern geodetics, but again, if the only realistic (and perhaps stronger or even cheaper & safer to produce) alternatives are later Viking/Valetta/Varsity wings that look the right shape and would get the replica airborne (regulations allowing, of course), then I wouldn’t rule out that option, as very few people would really complain if they saw such a “representative” replica take flight.
In the end, I’d be just happy to see a close replica in flight rather than a collection of parts in static display, unusable because of too-strict project originality guidelines; how many other old aircraft are out there flying, using more modern technology for better production and quality? Plenty, I suspect!
I’ll know very soon if it’s at all feasible once I’ve started negotiating with various establishments; right now, I’m dealing with a few private issues and at the same time still “testing the water” with this project, but it’s certainly clocking-up a very encouraging following in a short space of time (over 600 “Likes” now on the Facebook Page, alone!), so I feel very strongly that every effort should be made to follow through to a “finished, working product”.
Just give me a little time now, and I’ll really start digging! 😉
Alan Sugar in Stapleford??? Dammit! I’ve moved away from there, now – if I’d know that he frequents that airfield, I would’ve hung around there a bit… 😉