PondskaterTony, Mark, thanks. It didn’t “feel right” as an aircraft plate but I just don’t have the experience of such parts to know.
So, lets apply a few known facts to this and see if we can confirm the suggestions.
I met and interviewed Mr Gerrish years ago – he was a trained engine fitter but at Shorts he worked on the bomb aimers hatch at the front of the aircraft. In the late war he was one of several who broke up scrapped aircraft. He was also around as the factory stopped production was cleared and became, briefly, a supply depot. Plenty of chance to acquire such a souvenir (most workers have some trinket or other to remember the place by) but no particular guidance as to where he took it from. Sadly he is no longer here to ask.
And to consider the Feb 1942 date on the plate. The first Windermere aircraft was photographed as a bare frame in the jigs during November 1941 and again as a complete fuselage having it wings attached in May 1942. I would suggest the idea of a test item as Mark put forward would fit very well with these dates.
The blank plate could well have multiple uses – the engraved text on the “blank” is filled with black paint, not a one-off
I rather like the fact that it likely to be from an item of equipment in the factory. It has a nice association with the Windermere Works.
Malcolm – we’ll need several hundred tons of steel now please.
PondskaterMark, a good, succinct summary of the events. There were other incidents too. He was involved in a BBC programme searching for aircraft in Windermere which proved fruitless as his claims became more vague. I did speak to him by phone about the fake sonar image but alarms rang when he said that with the image he could get support to find the aircraft. He didn’t seem to recognise that having the image would mean it had been found – unless the image was false. Anyway, I stepped back from it after that.
I haven’t yet got round to ordering a copy of that aircraft movement card from the RAF Museum. It would be interesting to see if the word “scuttled” is on it, but ultimately it is the aircraft that I’m researching. As you say, very weird, and very sad.
Ok, a bit more on Windermere:
There is nothing in the archives to support aircraft sunk in the lake, and at least two teams of divers have searched the lake. However, if somebody wants to play with a sonar or other techniques, then I can point them to the moorings in White Cross Bay and then you can look on the other side of the lake and tell me how many other Sunderland moorings there are on Windermere. I’d like to know. Surely a Sunderland mooring is heavier than a yacht mooring.
The debate about allowing the Windermere factory to be built only for the duration fo the war is a long and fascinating story full of conflicts and contradictions – worth reading (but then I’m biased!) It wasn’t quite returned to nature. The factory closed in 45 and was dismantled in 49. The foundations and roadways were not removed, and the road layout at the caravan site follows the factory layout.
Oh, and there is a small error in the report of U-387. It was damaged but not sunk by EJ155 and I was able to find a copy of the U-boat log book for that long evening.
PondskaterWho was that handsome man, 😀 and what an interesting looking book! Nice ‘catch’ by author and forumite there…
James, the handsome man would be Bill Harrison who used to work at the factory, and broke up scrapped Sunderlands with a fire axe. As for the author . . .
And indeed proof that spending time on the forum is never wasted. Imagine the conversation:
“How did you find your publisher?”
“I met him in an internet chat room.”
Reactions are such fun. But seriously, I’m very happy with what they’ve done with my efforts and we’re even outselling Wilbur Smith at the local Waterstones:D
The exhibition is at the Brockhole National Park Centre all summer. Put together by my friend, artist Trevor Avery, it tells the story of the Short Brothers Windermere factory, Calgarth village which housed the workers, and the use of hostels at the village to house Jewish refugee children post war. Trevor has used some of the photos and info from the new book and added work from his own project on the village + the refugees. It is well worth a visit if you are in the area.
? Oh thats surprising, given the quality and confidence of the original expert who discovered them???, I mean there were conclusive side scans that proved they were there!!!
snip
I was an open skeptic of this gentleman’s claims as were most others, and it seemed clear he was living in a Walter Mitty world of his own.
but on a more sober note I understand he passed away in very very sad circumstances, and certainly he and his family paid far too high a price for his silly antics.
Mark, yes, the story of the side scan sonar image was an ultimately tragic one. As far as I know, the gentleman did not create the image, but he did believe it. A very sad tale.
But the story of aircraft in the lake has been around for a long time before that, which is why I applied myself to proving it and identifying the aircraft. It took me a little while to realise what a dead end it was but, with a little luck, I traced how the rumour started, which was the point behind the TV interviews yesterday.
It didn’t come over in the clip, but I told them that I’m 100% certain there is no Sunderland in Windermere.
Now, I must get on and find that Spitfire.
Allan
For Key Forums
beside the lake, beneath the trees . . .
PondskaterIn ‘Lakeland Aviation and Airfields of the 20th century’ by Ken Davies – Regional publications, Freshwater, Isle of Wight – see pages 28 & 29 – states that that the experiments with the Falcon glider were a great success and it seems that an idea of using them in clandestine operations started the experiments.
My books are packed at the moment but it sounds like the same story that the son of one of the experimenters told me some time ago. The trouble is, it sounds more like a round the dinner table conversation than real history. Why would the Air Ministry entrust such a project to two skilled enthusiasts and a joinery workshop in the Lake District rather than one of the aviation firms with flying boat experience? I await coroboratory evidence before attaching too much weight to it. However, don’t let that distract too much from the story of the glider which is fascinating – and it survives.
Also the glider is still in the Windermere Steamboat Museum along with another exhibit – the oldest working RR aero engine in the world from one of the earliest airships!.
Would be interested to hear from anyone who has been in there.
It is a lovely little museum and well worth a visit but, unfortunately, closed at the moment for refurbishment. The Rolls Royce Hawk engine in Canfly hasn’t been run for a while and will have lost its title as the oldest working for the moment. I do hope the new team running the museum are able to get some of the boats back into working order, including Canfly.
And it would be nice to see something fly from the lake again – it has been a while.
PondskaterAs James rightly says, there was a lot of space in a Sunderland for additional fuel tanks or whatever else was needed to be carried.
The only reason for strapping something on the outside of a Sunderland (mini subs/Chariots etc) was because you needed to drop them off at some point, and they wouldn’t go through the door.
The reason the Sunderland didn’t carry more fuel was the power needed to to get it off the water in a suitable short distance and, once more powerful engines were available, the spray from an overloaded aircraft causing damage to the propellors. The hull pounding on the water was less of a concern, surprisingly.
There was a constant battle between adding more kit to the aircraft (radar etc) and the need for fuel to get long range over the Atlantic.
PondskaterWell if we can set on set our own criteria, then I’ve always thought the Lancaster was a terrible fighter.
Or more seriously, the Short Sunderland. Specifically the IV, terrible. All that complex design work and, apart from carrying a bit more weight, was no better than the Sunderland III with American engines hung on it.
Erm, or the Saro A33? So bad it broke while being tested.
Really James, just because it’s 1st April. :p
PondskaterThere could be problems switching production between more conventional aircraft
Short Brothers refused to turn the Swindon works (making Stirling) over to Lancaster production and, in dispute with the Government, the company was nationalised.
Once the Government had charge they ordered 200 Lancasters to be built at Swindon (under Armstrong Whitworth) which was cancelled in Sept 43 and Stirling production reinstated because structures weren’t in place to switch . So the works carried on making an aircraft MAP didn’t really want.
Source – RAeS talk by Gordon Bruce last month.
PondskaterInteresting comments.
I wonder if the individual parts were that specialised, how easy were they to make and how that played out in new factories where there would, typically, be very large percentages of unskilled workers learning their trade.
PondskaterWhat’s the status of the Sunderland at Fantasy of Flight in Florida – might Mr Weeks be interested? :confused:
AFAIK, it hasn’t been flown for a while. It is also a civil conversion – clever painting could hide the larger windows and door but the re-modelled nose and tail might be more of a challenge.
PondskaterManchester Library has Sailplane and Gliding – but only the current year and previous year, no historic collection. I’ll try the editor – ta.
PondskaterI watched the Simpsons with a friend’s 14-year-old daughter – we never laughed at the same thing. Tough to write comedy to appeal to several audiences at once.
I like the incidental characters: “Hello, I’m Rupert Murdoch, the Billionaire tyrant” which 14 year-olds don’t think is funny.
PondskaterI watched the Simpsons with a friend’s 14-year-old daughter – we never laughed at the same thing. Tough to write comedy to appeal to several audiences at once.
I like the incidental characters: “Hello, I’m Rupert Murdoch, the Billionaire tyrant” which 14 year-olds don’t think is funny.
PondskaterYou’re too kind but no, I haven’t checked. One of the downsides of living in Cumbria is access to that type of archive collection in the local libraries.
I will check and see if they are in the Manchester Library otherwise it would probably mean going to the British Library – unless somebody has a bundle of them at home?
PondskaterA Collection Plan
A Conservation/Preservation Plan
An Archive/Library Plan
On this page are most of the curatorial type policies: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/policy-performance/collections.cfm
And quite professional they look too – as they should be.
I would be shocked if they didn’t have a disaster plan but I wouldn’t expect them to publicise it too much. The ones I’ve seen are, by nature, very negative documents.
A Strategic Plan (nominally a five year plan)
This I have also looked for and have not yet found. The museum falls under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act and I would seriosuly consider using it to request their strategic plan, and any other info that might help formulate the case.
PondskaterMark,
Interesting analysis – where were you when I used to have to do my quarterly reports?
One small error – in my earlier post I did not have the 2007 visitor figures – I’ve had another look through their Annual Report for that year and still can’t find it. The figures we have (as listed earlier) are:
2001 – 124 (100%)
2002 – 133
2003 – 141
2004 – 155
2005 – 169
2006 – 168 (135.5%)
2007 – ???
2008 – 182 (146%)
These are staff at end of March in each year
The National Cold War Exhibition at Cosford opened in February 2007
So:
……………..VISITATIONS……………..STAFF …………….VISITORS TO STAFF
……………..Total…% of 03/04……Total….% of 03/04….Ratio……% of 03/04
2003/04:..414918…..100%………….155……100%…. ……2676/1…..100%
2004/05:..526834…..127%………….169……109%…. ……3117/1…..114%
2005/06:..470815…..113%………….168……120%…. ……2802/1…….90%
2006/07:..516235…..124%…………..???……???%…. ……???? /1…..???%
2007/08:..601624…..145%………….182……129%…. ……3305/1…..119%
I hope that is right – it’s late and I’m packing to move house so haven’t got the time in the morning 🙂
Questions that are raised:
We simply don’t know whether the additional staff are working at Hendon or at Cosford.
We also don’t know if the museum’s Grant in Aid from the MoD is linked to their visitor figure performance. Do they get more money if they get more visitors?
That detail would need a Freedom of Information enquiry.
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