PondskaterFrom the HLF website:
Applicant: Vulcan To the Sky Trust
Programme: Heritage Grants
Location: Lutterworth, Leicestershire
Region: East Midlands
Amount awarded: £2,734,000Description: The programme will acquire Avro Vulcan XH558 for the Nation and restore it to full airworthiness. The aircraft will then be operated to provide maximum access for the public through display flights. Finally, it will be flown to the Imperial War Museum at Duxford, to become the best-preserved aircraft of its era in perpetuity.
There are a couple of questions answered in that short paragraph, including the issue raised above of it going to the USA. From memory, some of the HLF money was for the education programme that VTST/TVOC are runnng.
I’ve followed this for a while and two things strike me. First, that the very passionate supporters of the project are quieter in this thread than before – that worries me.
Second, there is little discussion about the way forward. What are the options? I know it is like the chap in Ireland asking for directions and being told “I wouldn’t start from here if I were you” but this is where the project is.
I know nothing about operating historic aircraft, but of those who do, is there a way of creating a viable business plan for this aircraft? Apart from Airshows, what revenue streams are possible?
If not and she doesn’t fly again, then she will go to a permanent home – it says Duxford above. But, if (big if) IWM offer her on loan, I suppose it could be anywhere in the UK. Has a Vulcan ever been moved by road? Can a Vulcan be moved by road?
Just some thoughts
Allan
PondskaterI was going to be flippant and say Wright Flyer but then I looked at this list and saw it is listed as a record holder (well, of course it is):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_airspeed_record
I believe one of the Macchi MC72s survives.
And what about G-LYNX ? Is it still with us?
PondskaterAnd there is the weathervaning effect (AKA weathercocking – but that will get censored, oh, no apparently not)
All floatplanes want to swing to face into wind – same forces are at work on landplanes too.
PondskaterEN830 – that’s an excellent idea.
Sending a card round has the problem of choosing the format that works with most cameras and the risks of the getting lost etc.
A weekend where we try to get a snapshot of the World’s historic aviation could bring in some good results but be easier to organise – and would enable those outside the UK to take part.
I’m very impressed by the amount of thought that went into the pics above and thanks to Ian for setting it up.
Allan
PondskaterPondskater, is that Windermere?
Yes – the slipway is the only easily identifiable bit left of Short Brothers Windermere Works.
Allan
PondskaterVery interesting selection.
Number 11 was taken 65 years to the day after this picture was taken, from (almost) the same spot.
PondskaterActually their are three of the Flying Boats left in North America
You’re doing better than that, you’ve got two UK built as well – there is a Short Solent at Oakland, San Francisco and a civil converted Sunderland owned by Kermitt Weeks in Florida as well.
and the Sikorsky VS-44A Excambian which is on display at the New England Air Museum. The Excambian is the only complete above water Trans-Ocean American Four Engine Flying Boat in the World.
And a wonderful relic it is too. Quite unique. I’d have it on the list.
But what I was refering to were the first generation of these big flying boats – the Short C and G Class (Empire) boats and the Clippers: Boeing 314s, Martin M130s and Sikorsky S-42s, which pioneered the Atlantic, Pacific and Empire routes.
The VS-44, Sandringhams and Solents that we have are all just that little bit later. But that said, any second generation flying boat is better than nothing. And as for the Martin Mars – you’ve gotta love that they’re still earning a living.
Now their has always been rumors that the United States Navy scuttle the last three Clippers off Baltimore.
I wish you luck with it. I’ve spent a fair bit of time chasing down, and eventually disproving, rumours of sunken flying boats. 🙂
Allan
PondskaterMark,
My apologies – I posted that from memory after reading it on the internet. Not a very reliable way to deal with info like this!
Anyway, I eventually remembered that I’d seen it on the Pacific Wrecks website here. It mentioned “Corinthian” had been found in Darwin Harbour – but it also mentions the wreck had been blown up at some point and had coral growing on it. Doesn’t sound promising for a restoration project.
However, the Government is taking it seriously and in a press release announced an interim conservation order over the site, including hopefully confirming the identity.
I am aware of the Broome site – and that it is registered as a memorial to the refugees who died, as well as the aircraft
PondskaterHi Tom – since the overall theme is surviving airframes, which Norseman survivor would you nominate for the list? Is there a particularly original or important airframe to represent the breed?
And on the subject of survivors, there is at least one class of aircraft that is now extinct. I’m thinking here (with my personal bias) of the first long distance airliners, the Clippers and C-Class boats.
We are almost certainly treading a path the big national museums have already looked at because the Science Museum here bought Short Sandringham VH-BRC (ex JM715), presumably to represent the era of large passenger flying boats and the French have F-OBIP at the Musée de l’Air et de l’Espace du Bourget
If there are obvious gaps such as this, then would this help to make funds available if a possible survivor is found? I’m thinking here of a rumour that part of a crashed Empire boat has been discovered in IIRC an Australian harbour.
Are there any other obvious gaps?
Allan
PondskaterDon – Thank you for all of that. The World Heritage lists are currently for natural environment or for human acheivements in buildings/monuments. The criteria are not always simple. I live in an area which may apply for listing as a “cultural landscape” which is a very hard thing to explain to the general public.
However, there is no harm in using these criteria for a hypothetical discussion as we are doing so here is my attempt at a summary of where we are so far:
Notable firsts – criteria ii and iv – outstanding acheivements in technology/ illustrating a significant stage in human history – in my view proving stages in aviation:
Wright Flyer NASM.USA
First Successful powered Flight (I’ll come back to this one in a minute)
Fabre Hydravion/Le Canard. Musée de l’Air et de l’Espace du Bourget
First aircraft to take off from water. 1910.
Bleriot XI , Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers
cross-channel flight – proved longer flights were possible
Bell X-1
First aircraft through sound barrier
And there is the first oceanic crossing, which is under discussion:
Curtiss NC-4, first crossing, USNAM
Vickers Vimy (Alcock-Brown), first nonstop crossing, Science Museum
Can I highlight this article: http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1919/1919%20-%200723.html
It points out the sheer organisational effort the US Navy put into getting at least one of their four aircraft across the pond.
Other “significant stages in human history” as relating to aircraft might be:
Passenger aircraft:
Represented by DC2 – it had a huge influence not least coming second in the MacRobertson Air Race to a custom racer. But which survivor represents the breed? The one at Albury in Aus is being restored to represent the racer but is it original enough?
Shame there are no Clipper or C-Class flying boats left.
Passenger Jet:
de Havilland Comet 1A F-BGNX, de Havilland Museum, UK
Example of the first commercial jet airliner
plus a 707 and 747 anybody?
Commercial Space Travel:
Space Ship One
One issue that does come through in reading some of the World Heritage list is the originality of what is preserved. I don’t think a massively rebuilt aircraft is as worthy of listing as one that is straight from service. So what state is the Wright flyer in? Has it been rebuilt since it went in the museum? If the changes are the developments made to it by the Wright Brothers, then they are an important historical record in themselves.
Oh, finally:
B-29 Enola Gay
We all know why so really no discussion needed
I know this won’t be popular but, is it the aircraft or the bomb that is “directly or tangibly associated with events . . .of outstanding universal significance”? The Hiroshima Peace Monument is already on the listing under criteria vi. Is Enola Gay worthy of its own listing or is it just nationally important to the USA?
Your thoughts
Allan
Pondskater.
No, no, no. Lindbergh was the cultural icon not the aircraft. The celebrity of the pilot and the feat acheived are very, very separate things here.
Disagree.
Yes, flying all that way without falling asleep was an achievement but, like the explorers who are first to travel alone or unsupported to the north pole, or whatever, it is not really a pioneering achievement. Somebody has gone before. That’s why I feel Lindbergh’s celebrity has elevated this flight to a greater significance. But I’m open to counter arguments. What is the disagreement?
The first successful trans oceanic flight was, of course, significant. But which one. We are fortunate in that the Daily Mail had set out the rules for a trans-Atlantic flight as early as 1913. The Curtiss NC-4 failed to complete in the time limit while the Alcock-Brown Vickers Vimy, by virtue of being non-stop, won the prize. I’d argue it is worthy of World significance for first successful trans-oceanic flight, and leading the way for intercontinental flight.
Allan
Pondskater.
Originally Posted by k5083
And I wonder whether it is too soon yet for history to have delivered its verdict on the significance of:
Rutan Voyager, first nonstop global circumnavigation, NASMIt was the first airplane to go around the world unrefueled…other aircraft had already made the nonstop circumnavigation (various military aircraft a B-50, and B-52s among them. A balloon did it as well, though the exact date escapes me).
The B50 Lucky Lady II at Planes of Fame took 94 hours with four refuelings in Feb 1949 – first non-stop flight around the world.
I don’t quite see the World significance of either flight – except possibly the US Air Force’s threat that their bombers could reach anywhere in world?
First balloon flight around the world was quite recent – in 1999 by Bertrand Piccard and Brian Jones.
Allan
PondskaterThere is one thing which I find really interesting already from this – the number of these aircraft that survive. Clearly most were considered significant enough at the time in order to have been put in preservation.
PondskaterShort SC 1 XG900. Science Museum
First VTOL fixed wing aircraft.
But this has not turned out, so far, to be an especially significant category of aircraft to most of the world.
Perhaps not yet but that should not overlook the technical problems that had to be dealt with to make it fly at all – and the benefits that came from that. The flights opened up a new class of aircraft.
A V Roe’s Triplane, 1909. Science Museum
First all British Aircraft. Flew 9 July 1909
Clearly in the “national” significance category.
Conceeded.
Ryan NYP, NASM
Carried the 82nd person to fly the Atlantic, and the only novelty was that Charles didn’t bring a friend along, but that plus a big prize, his star quality, and the increasing power of mass media created an undeniable cultural icon.
No, no, no. Lindbergh was the cultural icon not the aircraft. The celebrity of the pilot and the feat acheived are very, very separate things here. I wouldn’t put Lindbergh’s solo crossing ahead of, say Amy Johnson’s flight to Australia. In which case:
de Havilland Gypsy Moth, G-AAAH Jason, Science Museum UK
Piloted by first woman to fly to Australia.
Allan
PondskaterMark,
Happy to add a couple.
Short SC 1 XG900. Science Museum
First VTOL fixed wing aircraft.
A V Roe’s Triplane, 1909. Science Museum
First all British Aircraft. Flew 9 July 1909
Fabre Hydravion/Le Canard. Musée de l’Air et de l’Espace du Bourget
Built by Henri Fabre, was the first aircraft to take off from water. 1910.
Those are “easy ones” I’ve got a couple of debatable ones for later. 😉
Allan
Sign In
