PondskaterThe camera arrived with me this morning.
Unfortunately my first idea for a pic won’t be possible for the next few weeks so I switched to plan B which is a bit obscure but still aviation related.
So, who was next?
The only address that came with it was Adrian Gray’s but I think you had it recently. If there are no more takers quickly I can return it to EN830 for another go round the circuit. The frame counter shows 15.
Allan
PondskaterWindermere – fascinating – that’s the lake I drive past every day.
The reason the phone wasn’t answered is that the Steamboat Museum in Windermere has just changed hands. The Windermere Nautical Trust has effectively handed it over to the Lakeland Arts Trust who are about to start a major project to lift the boats out of the water and restore them, as well as raising money to create new facilities to display them. A huge, and worthwhile project and one which will take some time. The museum is currently closed. See: http://www.steamboat.co.uk/
I have a few excellent reference books on Windermere aircraft and will speak to a few people locally as well. But was it originally made in Windermere?
The odd thing is though, the lake was very busy with aircraft from 1911 (first flight from water in the UK) through to about 1916. Then nothing apart from a chap who operated an Avro 504 to the Isle of Man delivering newspapers in about 1919. In the 20s and 30s there was no aviation activity on the lake. The next phase was Short Brothers factory in WWII.
This is one of Churchill’s riddles wrapped in an enigma isn’t it?
Allan
PondskaterI was thinking about this again on the way to work this morning. Driving past the lake looking at a speedboat (it’s a tough commute;) ) I began to wonder if this had more in common with boats than aircraft.
Three things led to that:
The step is a long, long way back for an aircraft, but not necessarily for a boat
The chines seem to flare out just before the step – I’ve never seen that on an aircraft float, unless I’ve not looked from the right angle.
The vertical fin from the step to the tail.
The fin would provide some lateral stability, but an aircraft on “the step” would have enough air over the fin to generate its own, without needing this.
It is clearly designed and built to a high standard, which might rule out a model for testing. That leads us back to a one-off design or, as JDK said earlier, perhaps from a boat?
Allan
PondskaterA wild guess – Bristol Hercules ex Sunderland.
I’ll go along with that.
There were a couple of Sunderlands beached and then foundered against rocks along that coast.
Also remember, beaches are not the static environments that many think. It wouldn’t take much sand to wash up there for those propellors to now be buried only a short distance down. In Aberdeen in the mid 80s the war time anti-tank defences on the beach reappeared in pristine condition from the sand for the first time in 40 years. They’d been engulfed by dunes within a year or so of being put in place.
Allan
PondskaterDuring the recovery of Stirling N3654 we found that the interior was painted (not sprayed) with a yellow primer. But recoveries of Halifax and Lancaster wrecks over the years showed that the interior colour was painted directly onto the bare aluminium.
Hi Cees,
Just to pick up on the question about yellow primer on the Short Stirling – it is possible this was a technique only used by Short Brothers, since they were more accustomed to corrosion proofing seaplanes. Or possibly, since N3654 was an early Stirling, the Air Ministry might have relaxed their specifications later in the war.
I have an article on Flying Boat construction (Aircraft Engineering August 1939) which states that:
“The Military machines [Sunderlands] are protected by an elaborate Air Ministry scheme. All the parts are anodised, assembled with barium-chromate paint between joints and further sprayed inside and outside with Ryland’s 1142 zinc-chromate paint. In the final stages of erection, the external surfaces are sprayed with a green priming coat before the final painting.”
Curiously the Empire boats were corrosion proofed by anodising and then coating with lanoline.
If this level of martime-style corrosion protection was extended to the Stirling production lines it would have made any survivors easier to conserve – oh cruel irony.
Allan
PondskaterAvro Manchester
Many years ago I heard rumours about a quarry in Cumbria with an Avro Manchester in it – along with assorted other aircraft and scrap cars. But, as usual, nobody telling its exact location.
PondskaterShort Singapore underwing floats are about 14 feet long but also much ‘fatter’.
If they are underwing floats, and they could well be, they must be from something big.
I was thinking along the same lines and looking at wing tip floats too. They tend to have the compound curves you see in this one, whereas most floatplanes have flat topped floats. I suppose pilots prefer to stand on some level while climbing aboard – unless it is a racer.
Something big? – like the Short Sarafand, 70,000 lb AUW, and 2nd largest aircraft in the world at the time (1932). But it only had 18 feet long wing floats made of a mix of Alclad and stainless steel and again, taller and fatter than this.
I’m still leaning towards it being experimental – although if it was for wind tunnel or hydrodynamic testing only, it might not have needed waterproofing.
It is a fascinating puzzle, which is why it is more fun than doing what I should be doing tonight – worrying about my burst pipes flooding a neighbour!
Allan
PondskaterAlso somebody has gone to an awful lot of trouble to make that curve in a wooden float (for a marginal advantage) which would suggest to me these were from a racing machine rather than some service seaplane.
Just to give some idea of the size – the floats on the Supermarine S6 were just less than 21 feet long.
Yes its the right length but isn’t it too wide for a racer? The racing floats are about half that width – to reduce frontal area and therefore drag.
My thinking aloud was questioning whether fabric covering was strong enough. If the float is clad in timber and then fabric covered it would be strong enough – but, as JDK says, why fabric?
We’re all busy discussing UK aircraft – anybody able to share info on floats from other countries?
Allan
PondskaterJust to add a little confusion – the Putnam book on Supermarine aircraft states that the S4 originally had wooden floats – but not fabric covered.
Overnight I was wondering if a fabric covered float would be strong enough to be a main float. Could this be full scale model for a display or for testing?
Airmac – what else do we know about it’s provenance? Do you know any of its history and where, roughly, was it discovered? Admittedly just because it is now in Southampton or Rochester or whereever, doesn’t mean it wasn’t imported at some time from, say, New Zealand, but it might help.
Allan
PondskaterAirmac
This float looks like the product of the early 1920’s. Those used during WW1 were usually wooden boxy affairs with flat sides,top and bottom. By the mid to late 20’s they were usually made of metal so yours falls in the short gap in between.
Richard
Richard,
I agree with all that. Short Brothers had their own testing tank and made the floats for the Gloster I, III & IV, Supermarine S4 and Short Crusader racers – but all were made in duralumin. All the from Putnam Shorts Aircraft book, which curiously doesn’t mention the Gloster II.
The overall profile of the Short Crusader float is also a match to this float, except this float is wider, the materials are wrong and the step seems much farther back. The Crusader float is about 20 feet long.
So, are we looking for an early to mid 20s aircraft with streamlined float? I’ll look a little further.
Allan
PondskaterYes – S25 is the Sunderland type number and I have seen it on a few Sunderland parts as a prefix to the part number. However, I’m not really an expert on Short Brothers’ part numbers either.
With the Sunderland and Stirling produced in the same factory in Belfast, it wouldn’t surprise me to find a lot of commonality, especially in smaller parts. The experts in this will be at the Stirling project. Do they need rudder pedals?
PondskaterThank you both – RN297 was officialy registered as with the Marine Aircraft Esperimental Establishment at that time – which is, of course, where a trials aircraft would be. It was transferred to 88 Squadron in 1951 and sold, as you say, in 1953 for conversion and used by Aquila Airways.
Sorry but I should have said, my puzzle is Sunderland EJ152 which was registered as going to “Sauders Roe East Cowes” on 3-10-45 and later (1948) to MoS.
My suspicion of a trials aircraft is only a thought – and probably a poor one. After all the Saro Shrimp (a gorgeous little plane) was the main test bed for the Shetland. It survived until 1949.
I just can’t imagine something the size of a Sunderland being a company hack. The other puzzle is that it seems EJ152 was still a MkIII. By that time most surviving Sunderlands had been converted to MkV. But then, some movement cards do have mistakes.
The A33 is an interesting, but ultimately flawed, aircraft. Peter London certainly tells the fullest story.
Allan
PondskaterNot classified – I’m getting known for my obsession with flying boats, at the moment particularly Sunderlands.
It is the Saunders Roe A33, which was the competition for the Sunderland, that interests me. The prototype, as you’ll know, was K4773 but after its wing failed in a heavy landing the project was abandoned.
The other is a Sunderland that was transferred to SARO in October 1945, presumably as a trials aircraft. But I’d love to know more of what she was used for. Later recorded as sold to Ministry of Supply in September 1948 so was in use for a while.
I’m due to be down Southampton way in September and was planning to get in touch with Solent Sky.
Oh, and my apologies for not yet having fully worked out when to refer to Saunders Roe and when to say SARO!
Allan
PondskaterA thought on the original topic – I have a couple of Real Photograph Co postcards but they are images from the aircraft manufacturer. In this case I would suspect they only held the licence to use the images rather than the full copyright.
However, it also means that the images might be traced in two locations – making life marginally easier.
As for the SARO archive alas the chap who ran it here on the IOW had to give it up due to health problems. Last I heard was that Solent Sky might take it on.
Chumpy.
I was very interested to hear the location of the SARO archive. Is this just photos or the whole archive? I’d like to trace a couple of SARO photos but mainly I could do with tracking details of a trials aircraft they used postwar.
Allan
PondskaterWhat about the oral history? Not only of veterans but of those who for instance first experienced Trans Atlantic travel? Or those who travelled on the flying boats or the chappie who put the last rivet into a TSR-2?
Just to pick up one point briefly – are others here aware that funding is available for exactly this type of work?
I’ve been recruited by a group local to me who got significant funding from the HLF to do exactly this – spend one year recording the memories of 50 people involved in an area which just happened to include an aircraft factory.
Individuals can’t get funding but two people can set up a group. Try it. It’s fun.
But then there has to be a central resource so that researchers can find all this material in the future.
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