Pondskaterwondered where the official line was on how I could use them.
Found it! 🙂
It is buried in the National Archives website:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/copyright.htm
From this page download the “Full Copyright Guidelines” .pdf file and look on page 13. It explains that Crown Copyright expires 50 years after creation. (and thanks to Melvyn for the heads up on that one)
But Steve, since you are in the same position as me with former aircrew’s images, are they Crown Copyright?
The fun with photos is that copyright depends on the law in force at the time the photo was taken. But help is at hand. Look at:
http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/c-applies/c-photo.htm
It explains that photos taken before 1 Jan 1945 are out of copyright (with only some rare exceptions)
For photos between 1 Jan 1945 and 1 Aug 1989 “the owner of the material on which the photograph was taken is the first owner.” Now that could be read to say that photos taken with RAF cameras and printed on Air Ministry paper are indeed Crown Copyright (see attached for example of the paper watermark) and therefore the 50 year expiry comes into play. Otherwise copyright is with the photographer and, if he has given you permission, you are covered that way.
But one small grey area still – the National Archives state that “All material from The National Archives’ sources which are published, broadcast or displayed are subject to a reproduction fee”. That may have nothing to do with copyright but be something entirely separate under contract law. The same probably applies to images from RAFM and IWM. And I know nothing about that – but possibly will fairly soon.
Thanks to James and Melvyn for some useful guidance which led to these sources. I like official sources.
Allan
Oh, BTW, the attached is from May 1945 and claims Crown Copyright so it’s OK to use it here isn’t it? :diablo:
PondskaterSince my current project mostly uses 60 year old material this has all helped, although there are some grey areas I need to check, particularly what was in the fine print of the form I signed to get photos from the RAF Museum.
On the subject of crediting images – a lot are credited simply to acknowledge their source, rather than to assert a claim of copyright. A lot of people who let me copy their photos did so on the basis that they would “get a mention”. Many of those pics were printed on RAF paper with a Crown Copyright watermark. Even though they were personal snaps they could be claimed to be official – but if they are out of copyright now anyway its a bit academic.
Anybody know how to put these worms back in the can?
Allan
PondskaterI wish I’d found that leaflet when I was at the PRO! I’ve had a look round their website but can’t find an on-line version. What is the leaflet’s title?
Copyright can be very awkward. For instance, our museum has paintings 200 years old. But we claim copyright on them simply because we will not let you photograph the painting. We photograph it for you and then claim copyright on that photo – that is why many art galleries won’t let you take photos. IWM North recently asked me to sign a photo declaration saying the pics I took would not be used commercially.
I had heard that Crown Copyright applied to photos taken by serving aircrew – but persumably such pictures in my collection are now out of copyright (well, all up to 1956 anyway).
My comment was meant a bit flippantly – I assumed RAFM would still be collecting fees – but the copyright issue is something that needs clarity, otherwise my book at least will come out without some nice photos for which I cannot afford the fees.
Allan
PondskaterPaddy,
This one is from Killadeas. A well known incident when the Lough froze. Despite the efforts of crews to protect them, several Sunderlands were damaged when they swung against the ice.
I like the aerial view you showed – I have a simlar one here but it has a copyright stamp on it.
Allan
PondskaterHi Paddy,
Attached from my files is a photo of a parade at Castle Archdale when the Squadron crest was handed over to 423 Squadron (RCAF).
I’ve never been to Lough Erne but hope to get over soon for my first trip to N Ireland. Is there much left these days?
Allan
PondskaterMy opinion (which is just that) is it’s not enough to be attractive.
For that job the money is not bad. It is not the money but the job that people find attractive. People (like me) work in museums because we love museums. Our place got a grant for a new project which involved some new staff. We were paying not much above minimum wage – yet not one of the mandarins who approved the grant said that we should be paying more.
Now, if all museums had more funding, what would change? Well, the curators, who love their subjects, would probably be the same, however, you might get business minded leaders in. Not going to happen though.
Allan
PS James, if the RAFM photo library is closed, are they still collecting fees or can I put a couple of shots in my book for free? :rolleyes:
Pondskater> Given that Britain’s significant maritime history and aero-marine history does not have one single airworthy aircraft of any type, I’d say that’s a big gap in British history, wouldn’t you?
That one reason is good enough on its own. It is time we were proud of our maritime aviation heritage and did something to celebrate it.
PondskaterAt any rate, perhaps the Florida climate is being kinder to the airframe than if it was in the UK.
And, while it was airworthy, it was flown from freshwater. In the UK Edward Hulton had to operate from salt water and, often had no hangar. He tried hard to find shelter and freshwater but, after the council turned down his final plan to base the Sunderland at Chatham, she was sold to Kermit.
I think she is at a good home. Maybe she will be flown one day, maybe she’ll just be seen by tourists to Florida who will discover that the Brits once built large flying boats too.
But although speculation is interesting, it would be good to hear from Fantasy of Flight what the long terms plans are for the multi engine aircraft.
PondskaterYes but if he gets a flyable mars he might sell the sunderland ?
Could be good or bad?
Good – A Mars purchase rejuvenates interest in large flying boats, the Sunderland is made airworthy and the pair make a trip to Europe.
Bad – he pushes the Sunderland to the back of the hangar while playing with the new toy and its condition deteriorates.
Inbetween – the Mars goes somewhere else and the Sunderland remains as it is.
Depends if your glass is half full, half empty or simply too big for the drink.
PondskaterThanks for the update.
I’ve been away and nearly missed this – always a delight to read his posts. 🙂
Allan
PondskaterI think it is fantastic. Informative and fun. I’ve spent too long already trying to work out where the hangars used to be at the field I learnt to fly from! Good luck with it – and with eventually including RFC/RNAS info.
I’m not quite sure what constitutes an airfield.
This question should keep the forumites busy for a little while. 😀 I’ll just point out that lakes, rivers and coastal waters can also be airfields 😉
Allan
PondskaterFlypast Library, (remember our sponsor) record a total of 26 Seaford and Solents produced.
Oops 😮
There were two built as the MKIV Sunderland and then a run of eight which they then designated as Short Seafords – for the RAF. Then 16 Short Solents for civil use. Thats 2+8+16 = 26 🙂
Sorry about that – not paying attention.
PondskaterOnly eight built? Is that correct?
Yes – eight Short Seafords built (edit – plus two built as MKIVs) of which I understand seven were converted to Solents. But then there was a separate production run of 16 Short Solents. Still a good survival rate to have two preserved.
Yup. Not realistic though.
To quote W B Yeats:
“But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet,
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams” 😉
That said I share your dream of seeing any British maritime aircraft in flight again. Lets see the Walrus in the air first and then dream of one of the heavies.
I’ll give my support to project Walrus.
Allan
PondskaterIt would be nice to see a big British flying boat in the air again.
This particular aircraft started as that rare beast, a Sunderland Mk IV, renamed the Short Seaford. It had the RAF serial NJ203 before being converted to a Short Solent.
But perhaps our best hope for seeing one of the breed flying is Kermit Weeks’ Sunderland.
PondskaterWe live and learn!
We certainly do 🙂
There are a lot of very well informed people here and I’m grateful for the willingness to share. This thread has brought out a lot more than I thought it would (I particularly like the PSN-1 and 2!)
I think you might have found the Bristol link – which I was reasonably happy to accept I could ignore until now – thanks! 🙂 I found the XLRQ-1 pictured here and here
But why isn’t it in my Putnams Bristol Aircraft since 1910 :confused: What, if any, was the relationship between the UK Bristol Aeroplane Company and Bristol Aeronautical Corporation, Connecticut? There is a town of Bristol in Connecticut close to their factory. Surely not that simple?
Last but not least also Gabriel Voisin also had a glider boat that he flew in June,1905 towed by a motor boat.
Of course, how could I have overlooked Voisin? I have seen reports that Henri Fabre was the first to fly off water but, of course, his flight was the first powered flight from water 28 March 1910. Gabriel Voisin beat him by almost five years, flying from the Seine on 6 June 1905.
I suspect the Windermere glider was the first glider flight from water in Britain – unless somebody knows better.
It is interesting that it seems the first flight from water in Britain was also from Windermere on 25 November 1911 – although most books seem to have different opinions. I’m trying to get it all straight before I publish – and get damned.
Allan
Sign In
