It’s not very difficult to disguise Mirage IIIs into Mirage IIIs, but it will take some imagination to disguise Su-30s into A-4s or Pucaras. Just changing the roundel will not be enough this time :p Also Peru did not openly support Argentina, while Venezuela would probably even advertise such support. So I think if this impossible scenario would materialise, then they would retain their original markings.

Sorry I never meant my “rebranding” comment as a way for Venezuela not assuming the “propertity” of their Su-30s. My question in reality was would the Argentinians ALLOW foreign owned, maintained and piloted fighters to operate in their country, even a “friendly” nation such as Bolivarian Venezuela certainly is …

Regards!

Hammer

Just this week I was trying to locate a Vigilante Stealth aircraft image that a fellow poster on another forum drew for me. Unfortunately, it is nowhere to be found, it looked BEAUTIFUL!

Regards,

Hammer

I`m from Brazil and here I can see a MAJOR change, a rupture in Military-related thought, docrine and means reequipment processes. This is the 2008 National Defense Strategy (END is its Acronym in Portuguese). This is the document that asserted civilian rule over all the military functions, that emphsised the importance of developing and actually supporting a modern and strong national defense industry and thatcrystal;ized the various defence-related docrines into a single coordinated on. Before 2008 all military forces were functionaly and operationally independent from each other. And that was very bad!

Procurement was uncoordinated and joint exercises where disturbed by the fact that radios from different forces seemed unable to talk to each other… Before END Each Force would ask for bulk funding from the Finance Milistry and then split this money internally according to its own internal priorities and bias. No the military are told what they ought to evaluate in the Arms Bazaar. ZERO sinergy in the process. Now the big programs are conceived in the forces but as soon as possible these programa escalate to the the ministry of Defense. This has been a dramatically enphasised in comings and goings of the FX-2 and prosuper. For the Brazilian Air Force the next gen fighter planes is a key subject but so far FAB has refused to cooperate, the navy on the contrary is of a much phylosophy and is always eager to show its allegiances to the established Civilian masters. Right now the Ministry is pouring billions of into the KC-390 transport, thus the billions of dollars that F-X2 needs ro become a reality. Apart from all this I happen think this is a very difficult moment in which to settle on a single modern fighter. A fact true only begause there are zero “Barbarians at our gates”…

Some questions focus on the much declared mass obsolescence of 4th gen fighters due to the advent of Stealth fighters. Also are Brazilian defense industries mature enough to be the recipients of advanced jet fighter technology transfers? Maybe its a good thing to delay F-X2 a few years more…

Best regards

Hammer

Actually that’s the first and only issue – the Islands are British and the people living there wish to remain British, end of story. I can’t for the life of me work out why folks here are even bothering to ‘debate’ this issue (Obviously it’s a convenient excuse by some to beat the tiresome anti British drum but considering those folks are well and truly clueless or willfully ignorant as to the facts surrounding the islands why even bother reading their posts.)

If this “fact” you highlight was so clear cut and uncontroversial as you say, my friend, there would be no issue at all, correct?

But the Angentinian government believes these are their islands and they were able to persuade all the other governments of the continent of this and by consequence the roughly 380 million people they represent. I’m sorry if this opinion does not suit yours but just by ignoring it will not make it go away, I’m sorry. 😉

So, to finally answer Swerve’s central question I believe that the strategy to the Argentinians best interest is to make the extraction of any economic profits from the Islands by the British as hard and as expensive as they possibly can.

Harrassing foreign fishing vessels (by at least asking for their ARGENTINIAN authorization to fish in the disputed waters). Accompanying and interfering with survey ships envolved in petroleum field sounding programs just like the Chinese do in the South China Sea. By doing this they effectively scare off any potential financers without which the offshore oil extration bonanza dreamt by the Kelpers will never happen so consequently no financial independence for them wil ever happen.

As long as the islands are “poor” they will remain a considerable burden on the UK Treasury and that may work to convince the post Thatcher generation these few kelpers are just not worth the trouble and the cost. I’m not saying this WILL HAPPEN, I’m saying this ought to be Argentina’s simplest and cheapest way forward.

To do this they like northern neighbour Brazil will need some 12x 1800 ton OPVs and some 40-50 500-ton OPVs to police the argentinian EEZ (and the Falklands EEZ the claim is theirs. Maybe since the area that is more critical to patrol is well to the south the best mix might instead be 20 1800-ton OPVs and 20-30 500-ton units for their particular environment and future challenges.

On the air a consistent and modern fleet of long-range MPAs should be procured. I imagine that some 20 aircraft should suffice, modernized Orions, or coverted C-130 Hercules like the ones the USCG uses. Brazil has an open requirement to replace their 12 recently modernized P-3AM Orions in the mid-term. These could be Embraer designed derivations of their E-195 longer range Regional Jet or even a dedicated Maritime Patrol C-390 conversion. Argentina as a Tier 1 C-390 partner might be interested in this the long run.

As I said before I don’t believe that the Argentinians will ever again attempt to violently raid the Islands as they did back in 82. BUT I believe that they will should put in place measures that may keep the British Military concerned to the point as to expand the expensive (in number of means and number of people) the military defensive “shield” they have in and around the islands. This would be direct a continuation of the civilian based strategy I outlined first here.

So what would they need to acquire to be able to achieve this objective:

ASW (SNAs were and ought to be the UKs most significant military card in that near antartic environment)

Some 10-15 SSK subs armed with modern sensors and weapons
SNAs (if they can make them)
Underwater acoustic sensor networks
Long Range MPAs (the ones I mentioned before)
5-8 3500 ton or 6000 ton frigates with advanced ASW gear (active and passive sonars Towed Array Sonars, modern torpedos)
Encripted Dataliks and national satcom capability

Air based ASuW

30-50 Long range (extreme if possible) heavy land based fighter with supersonic ASW missiles Advanced Flankers (Su-35S?) armed with Brahmos or Moskit missiles
6x long range AWACS and
6 A330MRTT or 20 KC-390 dedicated tankers

Anti air anti missile (specially against ship/sub-launched Tomahawks) defense
20 batteries of S-300/400 class SAM systems

20 long range satellite-linked UAVs

Had the Argentinians such kit they would drive the UK miliary planners nuts leading to an immense expansion of Falkland’s defensive means while literally breaking the Bank of England at the same time.

Comments?

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Finally my friend Belethor, I believe that we all here SHOULD always “bother to read” the other’s people’s posts because until I last looked this here is essecially a DEBATE forum. And from this debate is that we all shall learn and grow as individuals.

Regards, from Brazil,

Hammer

You may as well use a civilian twin-engine conversion or Tucano rather than re-open a Pucara line. The latter is a symbol of a savage dictator that brutally oppressed his own people and used multiple shades of self-created crisis to maintain martial law.

Mad Rat,

May I ask what do you imagine when you say a “civilian twin engine conversion”, I drew a blank! 😉 As I see it, to the average Argentinean the Pucarás bear absolutely no conection with the last military dictatorship period, quite the contrary. As I see it to the average argentinian the Pucará is a major technological leap forwad for the local Aicraft manufacturing organization and an international commercial achievement.

Regards,

Hammer

P.S.: I imagine our local Argentinians would support this opinion too.

Argentina is really in a pickle these days… Both the Kirchener Governments have done the utmost to discredit and undercut funds for the military forces. If theuey instead opted to turn up the heat in the South Atlantic, I don’t mean starting a new war or anything of the sorts but by puttin some 40-odd new gen Su-35 Flankes in the South of the country the British MoD might feel pressed to significantly upgrade the islands air cover preventively which would end up costing the Treasury a sh%tload of money that would certainly be missed elsewhere in the British economy… 40 new Eurofighters (IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FROZEN SOUTH ATLANTIC, with zero logistics support from neighbouring South American ports and airports ) Ought to cost significantly more than the same number long range Flankers flying from ample and confortable land bases in Southern Argentina… In the regular long run costs for protecting the “rights” of the less then 3000 Kelpers on the islands… The Argentinians’ game is for the long haul, the longer they sustain their claim the less it makes economic sense to the UK government….

JF-17s to them would only make some sort of sense if the government gives up using military pressure to recover the Falkland islands and if they become exclusively concerned with very, very, low acquisitions costs to replenish the FAA’s Fighter Fleet.

Regards,

Hammer

P.S.: There is an ongoing effort to establish a Chinese Z-11 (AS350 clone) helicopter manufacturing site in Argentina, let’s see how well this develops before thinking about new Chinese fast jets for them. 😉

I find it a little lacking in the Stealth aspect… 😉

Regards,
HAMMER