Hi there guys, hi Swerve!

Barroso is one of the few ships to recieve a “mid-life-update” evem before it was delivered to the Brazilian Navy. The original sensor suite and combat system software was supposed to be British exactly like the four Inhaúmas. Its construction was able to be stopped twice only because it was built in the Brazilian Navy’s shipyard and not a private one. The last period of stagnation coincided with the ramp up to the Niterói Frigate’s ModFrag update program, so Barroso ended up being fitted with the much more modern Siconta software and Selex RAN 30/RAN20 radars.
The new class is being refered by the navy as the Tamandaré corvette after a 19th century Brazilian Admiral just like Admiral Barroso himself.

The basic objective behind the original Barroso order was to try to fix the Inhauma’s terrible sea handling characterístics in rough seas, thus the much larger bow to compensate for those ships tendency to take a lot of water in the forcastle.

Stealth design became a global naval design tendency AFTER the Barroso’s design was finalized and frozen. This time around there will be a significant design effort in that direction.

This tuesday ALIDE obtained many details on this program although almost all of our previous assumptions proved to be really on the mark . Please use Google Translator to read the article below in English or in your local tongue.

More details here

http://www.alide.com.br/joomla/capa/75-extra/4168-cinco-novas-corvetas-da-qclasse-tamandareq-a-caminho

Regards,

Hammer

I can’t see them building more Barrosos without an update & improvements. The original ship was ordered in 1993, laid down in 1994. She wasn’t commissioned until 2008 because of problems with the design & new systems. The original article points out that crew accommodation standards have changed since then: either a larger ship or smaller crew would probably be needed. The sensors were good in their class in the 1990s, but I’d be surprised to see them being ordered for ships to be built 20 years after Barroso. The air search radar is no longer offered by Selex, as far as I can see. I believe the 4.5″ gun is no longer made: only refurbished second hand units are available, & even the RN has given up on it for new ships. And so on . . .

I think the comments about updated sensors and weapons are entirely credible, & indeed, I’d be surprised if they were not updated.

Hi Phantom II, I meant absolutely no disrespect, my issue here is that looking at the current state of the US aerospace industry (practically only Lockheed and Boeing are left in the game!) one can only imagine what sort of “price creep” would eventually materialize if Boeing did really put the Bronco back into production in the near future.. If at least its production rights were sold to a smaller nimbler leaner company… The high cost would depend on FMS financial wizardry for it to become a successful exporter. Also as more and more western countries leave Afghanistan less demand there will be for a LAS type of aircraft…

Comments?

Regards,

Hammer

Hammer you are a knowledgable guy and I agree with your points on the ST. It’s a superb airplane and if the need for the ANA to have a light combat type is there then it is the best choice.

Having said that, a new OV-10 variant would be an excellent light attack/multimission type that would be able to do all of the missions of the ST and offer many advantages in certain situations. I’m not saying it would make the ST obsolete but given the proper development, I assure you it would be an excellent aircraft. Comparisons to the older models are unfair and really serve to discredit your otherwise good and well thought out posts.

Show some respect to a proven airframe my friend…it has certainly earned that much.

I agree, with the coalition members getting out as fast as possible (none will want to be among the last to leave), the Afghan army will have to provide its own support. I’m not very knowledgeable on the Afghan army history but I don’t recall them having a serious air force ever. The LAS is the perfect choice to help them train and support themselves until they’re ready for something else. They need to be operational by the end of 2013 at the latest.

And if the Afghan army/airforce can’t cut it at least western countries will be able to sleep better knowing no latest generation F-16 was left behind for the Taliban to sell to China end Russia…
Comments?

Hammer

Hi guys!

As a Brazilian let me put out our perspective on this issue.

1) The Super Tucano is a completely new bird, built from the drawing board with a strong and robust structure and most of all a top notch digital cockpit that would put F-16A/Bs and other “vintage” fast jets to shame. The OV-10 was designed some 50 years ago and its comparison to a brand new CATIA designed attack aircraft. You’d have to create a complete new fuselage that only resembled the original OV-10 , a clearly futile exercise…

2) Besides all the known benefits of digital cockpits it is really the plane’s ability to use FLIR to ID the targets on the ground and also to mark them with a laser pip that puts it in a totally new category of bomb with high precision accuracy using LGBs and GPS guided munitions.

3) Harriers and other jets in the Afghan theater have been taking off with a hodgepodge of different sized (and guidance systems) on their pylons that allows the planes to linger in the air waiting for a request from the ground that will determine ad-hoc the exact type of munition to be shot where. The ST can do it bot as I see it it’s the only one with this sort of capability.

4) Contrary to what Distiller and djcross say below there is certainly value in using in low-threat theaters such as Afghanistan is now a cheap airframe that is so much more economical than any of the current fast jets that just in fuel bill alone would pay for its purchase in a matter of months. More over current fast jet purchasing plans keep slipping and the grind of operations in Iraq or in Afghanistan only serve to consume the available number of airframe hours of the F-16/18/15 fighter fleet. Using the ST there would cut the burnthrough hours rates of these type’s fleets minimizing the need to replace them with new types ASAP. But on the flip side, there should be scores of flyboys eager to prove that their air force needs at least a 5th Gen supersonic fighter to be able to do the most menial tasks arround… Such is the political arena today.

5) US A-10s are getting rather old and I imagine as replacement parts start getting harder to find their hourly costs ought to skyrocket in the near future,. the Afghans might want some other more reasonable option to reequip their air force.

6) I suggest anyone interested in this theme should look up Wichita newspapers to get a feel of how complicated life is at the Hawker Beechcraft Executive Suite right now. Worker unions in Wichita are tightening their noose around the new owners of the company to immediately halt bizjet sub assembly manufacture in Mexico as well as stopping talks that would see the bizjet lines leave the US and move to CHINA!

Finally In the US we are in the midst of a bloody fight to affect the Defense budget cuts demanded by the current crisis environment. On the other side of the equation unit costs are soaring removing any possible benefit to the taxpayers… If sacred cots are at risk from major funding cuts how to move forward with a project like LAS that (at least in theory) is so tertiary that the planes will be exclusively focused on second and third tier global partners… Who is the guy in high places that REALLY needs these planes to be bought? I don’t seem to be able to id him at least for now.

Comments?

Regards,

Hammer

P.S.: there is absolutely no connection between the LAS bid in the US with the Brazilian selection of our next gen fighter the so-called F-X2.
But gross political inability of the US government to at lest show some empathy for the Brazilian national priorities (selling more Super Tucanos and KC390 aircraft in the near future. But the rejection of Super Tucano LAS will allow the anti-american political parties to shout around how “untrustwothy” and sabotage prone the American-side really is when Brazil is in demand.

Regards,

H

Brazil’s Navy purchases 3x ex-Trinidad OPVs and licence for more

This is the official release by BAE Systems. Confirming earlier reports the Brazilian Navy put a battred BAE against the ropes and extracted a deal for the three three ships PLUS A LOCAL MANUFACTURING LICENCE for more ships of this class for 133 milllion GBP.

[]s Hammer

http://www.alide.com.br/joomla/capa/93-releases/3059-brasil-compra-navios-de-patrulha-da-bae-systems-londres-reino-unido please use Goole translator for the content in English

Well if an oil field saddles Falklands and Argentine waters then the Argentinians would be perfectly within their rights tapping it as well.

There is just one issue here, the UK claim to the Falklands of course is less extense than the Argentinian claim added to their EEZ area. So although the British could no claim rights to the full oil under their assumption of the frontier the Argentinians coul conter claim that 100% of the “British” territory…

Regards,

Hammer

Thing about the 1995 deal is I don’t think we really expected anything would be found.

And don’t forget, when sovereign nations sign pacts between themselves all it takes for their cancelation is one of the parts to request its anullment. The Argentinians (and the British, of course!) may bail out of ANY agreement of the such the moment they feel it does not suit their current needs or policies. Noo strings attached!

Also, as rich as the “Falklands Government” may be it is quite certain that they WILL NOT fund the oil extraction operation down there. If the deposits are big enough to be in any way commercialy attractive it will take private corporations to do the hard work. And eve these guys do not spend their own cash to fund these efforts. The go to the market and say I need money for this project and the probable profit expected her is such and such. It will be these outside financial corporations that will get the ball rolling over there. If these guys suspect that drilling over there against Argentinian will ought to make the process TOO RISKY, they may just decline the financing and nothing the Falkland’s Government may say will make any difference. These guys sure read the papers, what do you think the latest Defense Review in Britain spells for their perception that Her Majesty’s Armed Forces would be ever ready mobilize to defend their investments in the South Atlantic in the next 20 years time for instance? Maybe all it takes is the Argentinians to bange their chests to give these financiers the cold feet…

Comments?

Regards,

Hammer

As far as I know, rough field capability was dropped from the requirement of KC-390 during final design stage.

I’m not sure about your sources, but mine say the KC390 is to surpass the C-130 IN EVERY DEPARTMENT… For exemple, the most demanding operational requirement of the KC390 which is operating regularly in Antartica, is certainly a key issue for the Brazilian Air Force, so it just ain’t going away… 😉

One important potential advantage of KC-390 in the civilian market is its high rate of deployment of civilian / certified subsystems such as engines, avionics suite and other electronics / mechanics parts. This could very well shorten and ease its way into the civilian sector, especially taken into account that civilian freighters are more and more being used to support overseas OOTW.

This is but one of the many the reasons that drive me to insist that a civilian derived C-390 ought to do MUCH better in the market then any of the preceding “military transports” fared…

Users of civ versions of An-12, C-130 etc may be reluctant to retire their craft in the short term but they’ll eventually do. When the time comes, I don’t think there will be many cost-effective alternatives.

Let’s not forget the way in which many of the ex-soviet Air Force and ex-Aeroflot An-12, Il-76, An-74, etc. came to be “privatized” in the aftermath of the Soviet crumble. There is no way these russian “entrepreneurs” will ever get a price break like that in the future… I believe that once these particular airframes life’s die out many of their operators will leave the cargo busines at once, with no Russian or western aircraft to replace the retired ones.

As a side note, so far the following subcontractors were selected for the KC-390:

Goodrich: primary flight control system
BAE Systems: Flight control electronics
IAE: V2500-E5 turbofan engines (won against CFM56)
Rockwell Collins: Pro Line Fusion avionics suite (won against Honeywell Primus Epic)
DRS Technologies: Cargo handling & aerial delivery systems
Esterline: Autothrottle systems
Messier-Bugatti-Dowty: wheels, brakes and landing gear extension and retraction systems and nosewheel steering manifolds
Liebherr: Cabin pressure control
ELEB: Landing gear
Fábrica Argentina de Aviones ‘Brig San Martin’: structural components
FAdeA: Spoilers, nose landing gear doors, ramp door, flap fairings, tail cone, electric cabinet
Aero Vodochody: Rear fuselage II section, crew and parachutist doors, emergency door and hatches, cargo ramp, fixed leading edge of the wing

Here in Brazil the general comment was that Rockwell Collins ran a pretty tough fight against Elbit for the avionics deal. Elbit played very hard using the “made in Brazil” card through their local subsidiary AeroEletronica (AEL) but eventually the israelis lost out anyway… Apparently Rockwell was more willing to chip in with their cash for the development of the new freighter.

Regards,

Hammer