BTW, I don’t really think that Raptor is so much better than any other aircraft.

I don’t think chocolate ice cream is so much better than any other ice cream.

= opinion.

Manu,
I understand your point..If you look back at earlier posts I said as much…though I think one on one in identical aircraft some pilots would do better than ones from another country..For Example take your typical Japanese pilot of WWII who had a high degree of honor and espirit de corpse..He would never surrender and He’d fight under all circumstances to the death…now look at your average Middle Eastern guys who surrender and run at first sight of the enemy….Never forgot the rows of Kuwaiti A-4’s lined up at Daharan AB SA, They just took off and ran when the Iraqii’s invaded…The list goes on….Please don’t waste your time responding to this..the facts are there for all to see, and I’m leaving the forum for some time….
Take Care,
TTP

Might want to reconsider what you said about the Kuwait situation: Here is a kill record.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_215.shtml

hmmmm lets see: last time i checked France, US and USSR did not compromise the whole word 😀
USAF being better between the 3 does not make it the best in the world. furthuremore it may simply mean that the AFs of C, J, K and V are not properly trained.
besides talk about today. when these battles were being fought most AFs that today are world class were in their stages of infancy. it is only after 5 decades of rich experience in combat the AFs like IDAF and IAF have thier own tactics in air combat. they have thier own special schools and methodologies to work with.
which is why i say unless you have fought every AF in the world i suggest you dont talk at all.

full scale war does not take the notion of fair or unfair into account. you use all means necessary. even if it mean nuking another country.
i never question US supremacy. there is no country that would stand in from of them if a full scale war broke. i simply said that when the sides are evened USAF has never performed well enough.

even during excersices with the RAAF the toradoes were given AEW/C support and managed repeated kills against F15s without AEW/C support.
so you see i only questioned the pilots in even circumstances.
it hardly does any good for a 10th grader to team up with other 10th and 9th graders and beat the crap out of a 3rd grader and then claim better training.

country N is not the only one to have done this. there is a whole load of Xs. Ys and Zs who have shown US inability to fight without force multipliers or when the other side is given the same force multipliers.
and how do you know country N’s neighbours are not upto the french standards? as far as i know a certain neighbour of country N until very recently had a very disciplined and well trained AF. ofcourse now times are different.

how much does it cost to have an exhibition match again? do you know how much it costs to get two AFs to get into an excersice like that? you really are shooting in the dark arent you? and i this is exhibition why so much secrecy about giving the public the ROE of the excersices? why do such results get repeated not just with country N but most other well trained sides? why do countries bother with the excersices even? why do they bother using ACMI and trainer rounds etc? why dont they just bring the aircraft over, have them fly with the host AF and then leave? i guess everyone is a sucker here right? country N and USAF have tons of money to throw around on such stuff. nothing to learn but “exhibition” 😀 :rolleyes:

thats very nice. but you see when two national defence arms decide to co-operate and are given strict guidelines on what to do and what not to and when millions of dollars are going into such excersices and you are using top of the line equipment to see how the other side performs things are a little different. what two private football clubs do is their business. they run their clubs like a business. AFs are not run like business. they usually try to leanr from each other 😀 valuable lessons that may prove decisive in war. its not a bloody joke that you make it out to be

😀 yeah good one. another one to go in your fine inventory of moronic quotes. wont even bother with this one

BS. you really need to shut up when you dont know what you are talking about. everything gets recorded. thats how you tell if a kill was made or not. pilots usually wear portable GPS recviers that constantly plot their position. once a simulated missile is fired using a real lock on the signal is recived by the control station. the pilots never see the launch but assume it happened and begin their evasive manouvers which would involve the use of chaff (and in some cases ECM) the GPS position is given for both after and before the missile was launched. the ACMI pod carried by aircraft shows an amazing amount of detail and allows the ground controlers to see what is happening in the air in real time as the action unfolds. the pod gives detail to the gound controlers such as speed, gs, attitude, roll Rates, yaw rates, turn rates, ascent/descent rates, engine thrust, CMDS operations etc. it even tells you when the pilot seclets which weapon in which mode. thats the amount of detail ACMI provides. once the simulated launch is made the evasive manouvers made by the aircraft are studied and the missile profile is also studied based on the gs it can pull, NEZ etc. all preconfigured into the ACMI range database. the missile launch point is shown along with the missile heading, range from target etc.
thats how a kill is measured. and its not all exhibition either. its easy to see if the other side is faking it or not because everything comes down recorded down to the smallest details.
furthuremore how well the R27 performs will never be given to the americans. the info given to the other side is tediously scanned through. the americans give data to country about their sidewinder and Aim120Cs profile etc. the R27/R77/R73 data is then given to the americans by country N and that lets them see how well these missiles perform.

in these excersices the level of detail about how to use the ACMI and what to record and what not to record is meticulously planned. a bit too much work for an exhibition no?:D

what goes on in Africa is their business. but goodies like ACMI radically improve pilot skill. them not being able to use the R27 effectively does not make is a bad missile. the missile has been shown to be reliable which is furhture confirmed by large orders from both country N and C.

😀 yes USAF is highly unlikely to meet flankers and Mig21 clones in combat. it is also very unlikely to come up against russian weaponary

That assumes you know for a fact that electronic scoring was used and sharedby both sides. The telemetry could have been collected by both sides, not shared yet the kills could have been called out.

Many times in situations where there is no electronic scoring, kills are called out over the common radio frequency both sides monitor:

“Kill… Eagle… FL210… left turn… north… ( and then your HUD video is shown later at the debrief, to back up what you say ) , BVR shots would be proven by basic calling of the shot, based on a pre-agreed ROE.

Unlike some of you, I have sat through a number of similar post fight briefings like this. Unless someone can pull up a source, ( and I could be wrong ) but I doubt they are going to set up an electronic range for a first time event, especially with just 6 F-15s being involved as one of the set types of players. And both players not wanting to show all their electronic ability.Then again maybe a complete electronic scoring setup was used??? I would like to know, from a first hand source.

Now on an upcoming Alaska visit, some day in the future, the electronic range scoring might be used. There is a big electronic scoring facility there. But that is an unknown based on what all players agree on and we will have to see.

The article was interesting. A few points:

-F-14s have never been actively fielded with HARM. He mentioned that twice. A test bird possibly but not one in the field.

-The Kosovo-large bomber-F-14 thing wasnt a good comparison. At that time the B-2 was the only jet capable of all weather GPS/INS weapons ( then Northrop/ “GAM” kits ) ( Boeing JDAM contract had only recently been awarded a few months before ). The rest of the non-GPS/INS wep jets many times went back home with bombs on the racks because of poor target visability.

-The one photo of the F-18 with the caption….

Armed with a 2000-pound MK-86 Joint Defense Attack Munition (JDAM), an F/A-18 Hornet from the “Black Knights” of Marine Fighter Attack Squadron Three One Four receives the final signal for launch aboard USS John C. Stennis.

Huh? MK-86? Nope also it looks more like a 1000lb JDAM ( JDAM-32 )

Toward the end of the article the guy talks about how the carrier is losing firepower and talks about the A-7 , A-6,. Have to be careful with a statement like that. Carriers are hitting more targets per sortie and in almost any weather… Couldn’t do that even in Desert Storm. The Carrier Air Wing firepower is a gain / loss. Gain in one area ( cheap PGMs and moving from sorties to targets to…. targets per sortie ) and a loss in another area: Range

Survivability is also a gain loss. Better electronic defense followed by a loss in speed for the replacement jet: F-18E/F.

This topic is nothing new to us at ACIG. Funny how a few Navy and industry old timers are waking up. Unfortunately they are way too late.

O_o pakistan has aircraft carriers?

The hook is a safety device. More than a few non-carrier aircraft ( F-16 etc ) have them for end of runway barriers for take off or landing emergencies.

Well if they have money to do that, I guess they don’t need the Billions of military foreign aid we waste on them every year.

Be the best damn tanker in the fleet too someday… well the only tanker anyway.

Great. Waste U.S. manpower in Eastern Europe.