VympelBut seriously:Your opinions about “massive military expeditures” spend only on arms and manpower maintentance are silly because if Russia can’t assign money on such a basic things you should seriously think about complete liquidation of Russian Army! You simply agreed here that present Russia is some downfallen African bantustan, buddy…
I was unaware that “downfallen African bantustans” had military spending in the top ten of the world’s nations. And just because something is “basic” does not mean it is cheap or unimportant. The fact is Russia doesn’t have enough money. Everyone knows this. You go on and on about Putin, but since when has Putin ever declared that there is enough money for the armed forces and everything is going fine? The answer is never.
Of course, Russian Army needs overall improvement but its nuclear forces should have a priority because US, NATO and China combined pose a far greater long term threat to Russia than some mythical terrorist groups as Ivanov often cheats you!
The nuclear forces are fine for deterring such threats. I’d hate to break it to you, but the Cold War is over, and it ain’t never coming back. And good riddance. Not the US, not China, and not NATO has, or will have, any reason to carry out a nuclear strike against Russia. Russia’s nuclear forces ensure that, and continue to ensure that. As for “mythical” terrorist groups- there have been a myriad number of terrorist attacks on Russian soil over the past few years. There have been none from the USA, China, or NATO.
Moreover nowadays Russia doesn’t buy any new extraordinary conventional equipment
And everyone else does? Oh, wait, the US still uses tanks and armored personnel carriers that were designed back in the 1970s.
but you simply keeps on duty old Soviet junk identically as you are doing with its post-soviet nuclear junks!
Style over substance. I don’t care where it’s from. I care whether it can do the job. And it can.
And another thing: extraordinary new equipment is for morons. You know what you get for pursuing revolutionary equipment instead of evolutionary, incremental improvements? Ridiculous cost and schedule overruns for dubious gain. Read a US GAO report on the subject. There’s enough of them.
Besides Russian Army was downsized for about five to ten times quantitavely since USSR’s downfall. Didn’t it cause any savings especially that nuclear arms are far less expensive in a view of their effectivity and deterrence than conventional ones???
Of course it caused savings. Unfortunately those savings dont’ just go to the military, nor should they.
VympelI please and beg, don’t name acquiring about 30 ICBMs yearly as a “massive military expediture”! It’s ordinarily too silly… 🙁
Training your troops, feeding your troops, fuel, maintenance of vehicles, planes, ships, aircraft, bases, air defense systems, procurement of all types of military vehicles for the Army, new ships for the Navy, new planes for the Air Force, new missiles for the rocket forces, new satellites etc. All of that adds up to massive military expenditure. It may sound trivial to build “only” 30 ICBMs yearly but it’s actually a huge amount of money which is ridiculously hard to justify in the current economic environment, especially when there are other military priorities.
To say nothing of the small matter of the rest of the economy and the good of the people (falling population, anyone)?
VympelAs Trident mentions, the INF treaty only applies to weapons the Soviets use and it only applies to nuclear armed missiles with a range of between 500km and 5,500km.
Yeah I had a semi brain-fart. What I should have said is that Iskander-M/Tender was developed to comply with INF whereas Oka/Oka-U did not. Iskander-E complies with MCTR.
The MCTR agreement means that both Tochka-U and Iskander-E cannot have a warhead 500kgs or heavier, which applies to both weapons, while the range limitation of not exceeding 300km really only effects the Iskander-E as the Tochka-U in its later models only reaches 160km with its 480kg warhead.
It’s MTCR 🙂
MTCR again, only applies to export. What I was saying the Tochka-U was not developed for export, it is simply an improved Tochka with more range, it’s been in service since before the USSR broke up. The “U” of course means improved. In fact, MTCR wasn’t even in place until after Tochka-U entered service in the Red Army (service entry for Tochka-U/ SS-21 SCARAB-B was 1989).
VympelThe model you’re building appears to have the big old style two handed steering columns. The Tu-160 cockpit shots I have are of fighter style single sticks (fun fact, crews originally hated the idea then warmed up to it when they realised how much better it was- not nearly as tiring, could operate the throttle without taking your hands off, etc). This was one of the many changes made during production. Guess your Tu-160 model is old 🙂
VympelOh for bloody hell. Can this thread hijack stop? Who gives a **** how it compares to the F-22, excuse my French? It’s not the same generation. That’s not its purpose. Any nation rich enough to operate the Su-35BM will not be fighting the US. The end.
VympelAnother source indicating that Su-35BM/Su-27SM2 is intended for existing airframes as well as new-build (for export).
In December 2003, after the Su-27SM modernization program had been deemed a success, Russia announced that it would proceed with the so-called “big modernization” program. The modernized aircraft is called the Su-35BM (also T-10BM) by Sukhoi, but it is not yet known what name will be adopted by the Russian Air Force. The Su-35BM program is to be a deep modernization of existing airframes, not newly produced aircraft.
The main new feature of the aircraft is to be a new radar. It has not yet been decided whether it will be the Phazotron-NIIR N031 Sokol or the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis. The first is actually the well-known Zhuk radar with a passively scanned phased array, while the Irbis is a version of the N011M Bars-M, also with a passively scanned phased array. In 2003 a new phased-array antenna was tested for Indian Su-30MKI aircraft, but it achieved only +/-45 degrees of horizontal field of view, instead of the planned +/-70 degrees. The remaining angle of 25 degrees was achieved mechanically via a hydraulic servo, which was an unsatisfactory solution. The Irbis is to differ from the Bars-M by having quick servos that are tightly synchronized with the radar electronics to achieve the 70 degrees of scan on either side of the fighter’s axis. Sources says that NIIP’s solution is preferred by the Russian Air Force, since NIIP radar sets were all proven in service. The radar is to have similar capabilities to the N011M Bars-M. The detection range of a fighter airplane (170 km) and a destroyer-sized naval target (300 km) more or less matches the N011M’s performance.
The Su-35BM is also to receive a small radar in a tail “stinger” to monitor the rear hemisphere. It is to be a NIIR N012 Kopyo-DL with a passively scanned phased-array antenna with a range of about 50-70 km. The unique arrangement indicates that Russia does not plan to rely as heavily on data exchange networks to maintain situational awareness, although the Aist data-exchange system for the Air Force is under development.
The weapons set for the Su-35BM is to be the same as the Su-27SM. Among the new weapons in development is a long-range air-to-air missile with required range of 300 km. Since the range is beyond radar range, external information is required to prepare the missile for launch. Two or four such missiles are to be carried. The missile is to be developed from either the Novator KS-172 technology demonstrator or the Vympel R-37M missile, also proposed for the MiG-31. Sukhoi prefers the first solution, and one can say that it is part of Sukhoi’s long-standing strategy to prompt the Air Force to “kill” the MiG-31s and replace them with the Su-27 family of aircraft.
The Su-35BM is also to receive a totally new self-protection system. It was developed by KNIRTI (Zhukov near Kaluga, Russia) and is designated the L-175M Khibiny-M. It has an integrated electronic-support-measures system of high accuracy, a separate display in the cockpit, a digital processor, and an integrated active radio-frequency jammer with pods on the wingtips. Probably in the future, the aircraft will also receive a missile-approach-warning system and a towed decoy (for example, the Lobushka). The aircraft will have RAM coatings and some internal changes to increase stealth features, such as a new windshield and canopy of slightly different shape covered with radar-absorbent material.
The modernized Su-27SM, together with the modernized Su-25SM and Su-24M, will form the core of the Russian Air Force for the next two decades, and this could lead to the complete withdrawal of MiG-29 aircraft, which are not going to be modernized. While the MiG-29SMT represents the ultimate modernization variant for this undervalued aircraft, without dividing the upgrade into phases, it could not be presently afforded by Russia. The Sukhoi approach, with “small” and “big” modernizations, was much more realistic and ultimately triumphant.
From “Red Fighters Revised”, Pt 1.
VympelOne is an upgrade of an incomplete model, while the other was a new build that had been improved… ie 45 ton payload etc etc.
How’d they do the improvement, what was changed? So they really are building new airframes completely from scratch? I never heard about this prior. All I knew was that they were upgrading the fleet with the various new weapons (Kh-555, PGMs, gravity bombs etc) and avionics/ defense systems etc.
Vympeltoday oil costs 74 USD per barrel!
Currently, Russia puts all oil profits above $27 dollar per barrel in a windfall fund. There are other priorities asides from massive military expenditure. I would think the health care system, housing, aging infrastructure etc should be higher on the list than churning out numbers of ICBMs that quite simply aren’t necessary.
VympelDoes Tu-160 use its radar to guide any missiles at all or its just for terrain avoidance?
How would you use a radar to guide a missile with a range of thousands of km? They use inertial navigation/ computer maps etc. TERCOM as its known in the West.
Is this radar getting an upgrade?
Eventually the Tu-95MS, Tu-22M3 and Tu-160 willl all be equipped with common radars (replacing Obzor on the Tu-95MS and Tu-160 and the PN-A on the Tu-22M). The new weapons just require the moderniztion of the missile initialisation/ launch system (Sprut).
Also does anyone have photos of Tu-160s cockpit in detail,apart from the pilots and co-pilots stations?
I do (the EW station), but it’s in my Tupolev Bombers book, and I don’t have a scanner.
VympelLittle thing called export restrictions… ISKANDER-E and TOCHKA-U are for export and are not used by Russian forces… I assumed we were not talking about a war between the US and Russia… silly me. The limit on warhead sizes for ballistic missiles is 500kg and 300km respectively, which the ISKANDER-E must adhere to regarding range and warhead weight and the TOCHKA-U must adhere to regarding weight.
Tochka-U is used by Russian forces- it’s an improved version of the original. No variant of Tochka comes under the INF Treaty. INF only comes into operation when a missile has a range of 300km (hence why Iskander-E has a range of 280km).
VympelNopes , its not an upgrade using existing airframe , but a new built aircraft , It has new avionics system , more use of composites,new engine and effort has been made to reduce its basic RCS
Well, that’s odd, to say the least. This article:
Su-35 Airplane to Be in Demand in Domestic and Export Markets
The Su-35 (Su-27SM2) fighter, which the Sukhoy OKB is developing, will be in demand not only by the Russian air force, but also by foreign customers, the general director of the Sukhoy Aviation Holding Company, Mikhail Pogosyan, has declared.
“We thing that the new airplane should be produced for the Russian air force in the Su-27SM2 “technical aspect.” Work in this direction is underway actively, inasmuch as the aircraft will be in demand both in Russia and abroad,” M. Pogosyan told Interfax-AVN.
According to him, “the need for replacement in the future of the existing fleet of Su-27 type fighters will require marketing in the period approximately of 2009 – 2010 along with the upgrade and overhauls and the order of new airplanes for the Russian air force.”
M. Pogosyan noted that in the draft of the Russia’s state arms program to 2015, all emphasis will be arranged neatly on the developments and purchases of aviation equipment, based on the volumes of financing.
“The Su-27SM2 is the next stage with a transition to new sensors and phased antenna array of the aircraft radar (RLS),” the Sukhoy AkhK general director emphasized.
In the opinions of specialists, the Su-27SM2 fighter, which is intended for Russia’s air force (the export variant is the Su-35) is a heavy upgrade of the Su-27/27SM fighters. The installation on the fighter of new aircraft engines with a thrust up to 14 tonnes (instead of 12.5 tonnes) and new aircraft equipment, including the “Irbis” aircraft radar, will be a distinguishing feature of the Su-27SM2. The fighter also is supposed to receive new long-range missiles of a different class.
It is planned that the Su-27SM2 will be a step in the creation of the future tactical aviation aircraft complex, inasmuch as on it many proposals for the fifth generation combat airplane will be perfected, Interfax notes.
Source: 14.02.06, Interfax-AVN
Makes it pretty plain that it’s an upgrade of the Su-27SM. If, however, it’s solely intended for new production, then quite simply the RuAF can’t afford it. You can’t pay for Tu-160 upgrades, Yak-130s, Su-34s (very important), Su-25SMs, Su-24M2s, Su-27SMs etc and have money to introduce a radically upgraded, new build Flanker. That’s crazy.
VympelYou probably are not well informed about things you are talking about. All SS-N-20s are gone now! They are already scrapped under Nunn-Lugar program.
That’s not what I heard. They ran out of SS-N-20s because their service life expired, however, there are still some 10 missiles remaining.
The successor, Bark (SS-NX-28) was cancelled because they couldn’t get it right. Hence Bulava. You might say it was political meddling, but the fact is Bark exploded multiple times in test-flights. Cancelling a system that clearly wasn’t performing is what the defense industry of every country needs more, not less, of.
Moreover all Typhoons also withdrew from service two years ago.
The Arkhangelsk and Severstal haven’t been stricken. In fact, it was reported quite recently that one of these two boats went in for repair/refit/overhaul. Given that their aren’t supposed to be any spare SS-N-20s left, chances are good it’s being re-equipped for Bulava carriage.
Well, guys! At those glorious times everybody knows very well who is “strongman number one” on this planet! Compare this with entire Putin’s achievements!
Mate, seriously. This is not the Cold War. Those obscene levels of military procurement cannot be justified on any reasonable level. Russia’s nuclear deterrent is fine, they’ve got two new successful delivery systems in production and at least one more planned in the future (the new “heavy” missile).
VympelDon’t worry about the Tu-160s Ukraine scrapped. Most of them weren’t even airworthy. Russia got back the 8 examples in the best condition.
VympelThat this upgrade-work is named “new-built” is misleading. In the widest sense such aircraft may be termed “new-built”, because the intensive work-up related to that.
If someone has better infos, please post.
I’m pretty sure that when they say “new-built”, they mean the incomplete airframes at Kazan that were incomplete when production stopped in the 1990s. For all intents and purposes, new is appropriate terminology for them. The 8 Ukranian examples that were returned have been included in the force totals for a while now. Also, I’ve never heard of the upgraded Tu-95MSM bombers being referred to as new.
What remains to be seen is if they’ll restart, or have restarted, Tu-160 production for real (ie. building new airframes from the beginning).
VympelI thought the Su-35 was cancelled for the thrust vectoring Su-37 Super Flanker program? Then I thought that the Super Flanker was just a test bed for the PAK-… whatever it’s called? How far off am I?
To add to what flex297 said, this Su-35 (actually, it’s called Su-35BM) is totally different from the original- this is an Su-27 FLANKER-B upgrade. Hence the alternate Su-27SM2 designation. It’s the “big” second-stage modernization, whereas the Su-27SM is the “small”.
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