First Zhuk-MSF is Sokol and then it’s Sokol is Zhuk-MSF? I liked Sokol better, personally.
Anyone getting the impression that Phazotron might become the ‘export’ company and NIIP might become the indigenous company?
Depends on who makes the AFAR/AESA for PAK FA first, really.
When you have lots of them, they do.
Only if they were stacked one on top of the other to interrupt the flow air.
When it looks crap, you bet it works like crap.
Soviet T-34s looked like crap. They did not work like crap. Their gun was still powerful and their armor still well designed and thick.
How you assemble things are reflected both simultaneously inside and outside. You should know this, if you are ever in production.
The first picture shows a Soviet era aircraft. Slop isn’t it?
Doesn’t look pleasing? Yes. Affects performance of the aircraft? No.
The second picture shows a post Soviet era aircraft. The Russians don’t agree with you anymore.
Agree with what? They got access to new manufacturing tools, so they used them? That doesn’t mean they were *required* to produce a combat aircraft that meant the stringent requirements of an air force.
This doesn’t apply across the board (e.g. western quality machine tools produced higher quality 2A46M series main guns) but as far as aircraft goes …
Nice MiG-29SMT picture btw, flex.
Meaningless? In the principles of aerodynamics it is meaningful. Every tiny rivet or protrusion adds their own little bit of drag; multiply that thousands of times, and it adds up a lot. Why don’t you ask Boeing or Lockheed Martin if that axiom is indeed meaningless or not.
As Garry B said, a tiny protruding rivet does not penetrate the boundary layer by any meaningful degree, and you sure as heck can’t find any huge bumps of any consequence that don’t need to be there on any Russian 4gen fighter. ‘MiGs’ by Bill Sweetman covers this as well, IIRC- the MiG-21 for example continued the trend of placing any such visible bumps in the airframe (for reasons of simplicity or structural strength or whatever) well back, where the airflow over the aircraft had already been broken up. A tiny rivet that protrudes by some infintesmally small amount is not of consequence aerodynamically. Can you find any pictures of a Russian series built Su-27 with really shocking protrusions and bad workmanship? Because “not as neat” does not equal “bad/unsatisfactory/unacceptable”. That’s a pure false dilemma fallacy (i.e. either/or).
How you make the plane outside does reflect how you build the plane inside. If you don’t pay attention to the outside, then you don’t have the ethic for quality. And that reflects on how you weld, rivet, screw, assemble, and bolt things in the inside. How your plane _WORKS_ is reflected on this. Will it break down? Can it maintain operability? How long will it last? Your airframe, your engines, your wiring, your linkages…
You are simply restating your original “toyota maxim” without logically demonstrating why it must be so. This is not an argument, just assertion.
Furthermore, you are exaggerating minor imperfections (that are barely visible upon inspection) with no effect on combat performance into “don’t pay attention to the outside”- that’s simply absurd.
Demonstrate the logical connection, with evidence, between “finish isn’t as smooth as x” and “must break down a lot”. It’s pure style over substance, nothing substantive there at all.
It’s not WW3 anymore by the way.
That’s the context, these weapons were designed expecting to fight it.
And even when you’re preparing for war, you must still have your standards so you can be assured that when the time comes, they will work as expected, and not break down.
Demonstrate the logical connection between “finish isn’t as smooth as x” and “must break down a lot” please.
By the way, about milling machines, machine tools and lathes, if you want to run a google search for those made in China, you will find a very long list…
So? I can think of millions of things made in China.
As for whether finish is that important, I am a deep believer in the Toyota maxim.
The attention you pay on the outside, reflects the attention you pay in the inside.
The principles by which a civilian consumer automotive company operates to maximize sales are irrelevant to the principles of aerodynamics. You must demonstrate, rather than assert, that there’s any connection between the two. Finish is nice, but totally irrelevant to performance.
The “finish” of a fighter (i.e. the easiest military aircraft to build apart from trainers) is hardly an indication of the status of an entire field of technology. Until China can design some strategic bombers equivalent to the size, power and capability of the Tu-160 and Tu-22M3, it’s quite clear whose ahead in the field, amounts of (foreign) machine tools notwithstanding.
I hope one day we actually see the T-60S. Or, more appropriately, a modern successor.
i just hope that whatever the numbers, this deal works, its a shame that the legendary mikoyan is facing death as it is, and so the Mig-29. 🙁
Camaro
I don’t think they’re facing death, not with the basic MiG-29 sales still ticking over and this big deal with Algeria ($1.5 billion is a lot of money) and Yemen.
Woah. 200 MiG-29SMTs? That’s …. excessive!
(really, do they need that many?)
Is India’s selection of the Mirage 2000-5 confirmed? If so, then India’s only MiG-29SMT potential would be their existing fleet. Don’t know if they want to turn them into strikers, though- but they could go Yemen’s (I presume, judging from MAKS 03) pics and forgo the massive fuel increase.
I’m not Russian, I’m Australian.
*deleted my reply to TTP, since he retracted what he said- as can be seen from my post, I didn’t say anything except the handover of sovereignty wasn’t real*
Hmm excuse me here but the Iraqi elections are in January for a permanent Gov, didn’t the US “promise” full sovereignty, as per my knowledge there has been no formal plans announced by any Iraqi canditate when it comes to the millitary, how nice of the US to decide for the Iraqis already.
“Full sovereignty” is a blatant lie. The Iraqis aren’t getting any authority over anything come June 30, it’s a sham. US troops will remain, the government is still appointed by US officials (not elected), who have no say over occupation forces, and no power to pass any laws the US doesn’t approve of. The real government after June 30 will be the massive, 3,000 person US embassy they’re building, heading by Negroponte (or whatever his name is).
however the second vid did raise some questions in my head. how powerful is the tor missiles? and how fast was that drone going at when hit?
9M330 misisles of the Tor-M1 have 3,000km/h top speed, 30g max g-load, effective range of 1-12km, and altitude limit of 10-6,000m. It can hit targets flying from 36-2,500km/h. The warhead is a 15kg blast-fragmentation.
As the successor to Osa-AK (SA-8 GECKO), the Tor-M1 (SA-15 GAUNTLET), they have the same role of destroying low-flying targets like CAS aircraft and helicopters, as well as a proven anti-cruise missile capability (examined by the West when they got their hands on some Osa-AKs).
Here’s to Tor-M2, when it comes out 🙂
seems strange that the drone’s flight path alsmot didnt change even after two direct hits.
Why would it?
however the second vid did raise some questions in my head. how powerful is the tor missiles? and how fast was that drone going at when hit?
9M330 misisles of the Tor-M1 have 3,000km/h top speed, 30g max g-load, effective range of 1-12km, and altitude limit of 10-6,000m. It can hit targets flying from 36-2,500km/h. The warhead is a 15kg blast-fragmentation.
As the successor to Osa-AK (SA-8 GECKO), the Tor-M1 (SA-15 GAUNTLET), they have the same role of destroying low-flying targets like CAS aircraft and helicopters.
seems strange that the drone’s flight path alsmot didnt change even after two direct hits.
Why would it?
This is made up, folks. It’s just theory.
Three missiles, actually.
http://www.aviation.ru/www.rusarm.ru/video/9K331_Tor-M1.wmv
link is dead, btw
Is there supposed to be a picture ? 🙂