Originally posted by plawolf
its not like israelis never resorted to ‘unconvential’ means of getting what they wanted before the IDF was a force to be reconed with, a certain bombing of a british army headquarters comes to mind.

OK, let’s talk about the Kind David, it’s actually a good example of why things can be done differently even when you’re weak. Following the bombing Ben-Gurion called these people the enemies of the Jewish people, the Yishuv leadership broke ranks with the Irgun and even turned some of its members over to the British. No glorification, no half-hearted condemnations, no football matches named after the perpretrators. When the Jewish Agency Executive met in Paris a short time later they in fact decided to end the armed struggle against the British, and the main Jewish armed group at the time, the Haganah, indeed ceased its armed struggle. Can you imagine a similar move on the part of the largest Palestinian group, the Fatah? I wish.

cos by almost all accounts, most IDF opperations in palistinian territory after an attack on israel seems only to serve the pupose of vengence.

Since the October 4th bombing of a restaurant in Haifa, no Palestinian terrorist has managed to exact large casualties on an Israel. It’s not because they’ve grown a conscience, it’s not because the Palestinian Authority suddenly begun cracking down on militants. Its because of ongoing IDF operations, it’s because the Hamas leadership no longer dares to make a public appearance unless sorrounded by a crowd of hundreds, and it’s because of the fence. Before operation “Defensive Shield” in April 2001, March 2001 saw more than 100 Israeli casualties. March 2003 saw less than a third of that. Call it vengence, whatever you like, the results speak for themselves.

as u seem so convinced that organisations like hamas are only out to try to kill israelis, then wouldnt it seem stupid of israelis to expect hamas to make the first move towards true peace and coexistance?

Of course, I expect no such thing from Hamas & co – I expect it of the Palestinian Authority. I expect nothing save what the agreements they have signed demand of them : the dismantling for terrorist organizations. You are aware that the UN backed RoadMap for Peace demands no less, without any preconditions, are you not?

its not like these ppl have another choice, as ppl pointed out so clearly, not even all the arab nations in the area stand much of a chance against the IDF, so how much better would poorly trained molicia with almost no modern equipment fair?

They have no choice save murder? There does not exist any provision of international humanitarian law which permits armed groups and individuals to strike at civilians on the grounds that the armed forces of the enemy are too powerful to defeat in combat.

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Look plawolf, I do get what you’re trying to say. Basically, it is that because Palestinians would resort to such tactics against Israel, this necessarily means that they are so desperate that their grievances should immediately be addressed, specifically by Israel. All of this I believe I have addressed before, wether to your satisfaction or not. I will tell you this though :

Your notion that Israel should address Palestinian grievances because of suicide bombers is an absolute corruption of every moral law of war that humanity has worked for so long to formulate. It vindicates plain and simple murder, it absolves the Palestinians of every form of resposiblity and accountability for their actions. It negates dialogue as a method to resolve disputes, replacing it with the cruelest of methods. Worst of all, it will not bring peace. No sane government, no sane people, would surrender to tactics that are nothing short of blackmail. Because even if they will, all it would achieve would be the perpetuation of the conflict. For all your (misplaced) sympathy for the lone suicide bomber, the Hamas will not disappear of its own volition, just as Al-Qaida or the Hizbullah didn’t, and they will always find the poor unfortunate souls to prey upon. Terrorism doesn’t grow on trees, and it not an afflication that strikes the minds of the poor or repressed. It’s an active undertaking, willfully chosen by rational men to kill as many innocents as possible. And it’s so effective because it casts the criminal in the role of the victim, masking the fact that the real victims are the people who fell by this man hands. It is abhorable, regardless of the sorroundings.

Are there Palestinian grievances that should be addressed by Israel. Yes there are. But these will never be addressed because of suicide bombings, only despite them.

Originally posted by Erez
… I heard at least one UAV last month, and Israeli UAVs don’t fly in the center of Israel, except in Gaza…

Erez, you’re completely wrong on that matter.

Originally posted by Vaiar
Read, the reaction is only “worried”, nor harsh language or threats at all. Not even: “If we see another one, we’ll shoot it down!” Why is that? Is Israel afraid that Egypt might do some more?

No one wants deterioration which can be avoided by a simple ceassation of the flights.

Originally posted by Arthur
Wuss! I actually think that settlers and the IDF are legitimate targets for the terrorists, as those are the ones occupying Palestinian territory. On the other hand, as any sane person I am absolutely disgusted by attacks on civilian targets in ‘Israel proper’. In fact, i seriously think that if those terrorist *******s could just limit their attacks on more legitimate targets (=military ones and settlers), it would become hard not to label them as freedom fighters rather than terrorists.

The settlers may be wrong, may be unpopular, they maybe a whole lot of things, but they are still civilians, with the same rights to life and security entitled to every civilian on the planet. This is not solely my opinion, nor that of Israel, but that which all prominent human rights organization in the world support. The fact that they live in disputed territory does not make them any less civilian than people living within Israel proper. It’s quite funny to see the biggest opponents to the death penalty, or the people which decry treatment of Al-Quida terrorists by US authorities, so lighty pass capital punishment on people whose crime is living where some people believe they shouldn’t.

Yet even if the above were not true, I would still argue that settlers and IDF soldiers are not legitimate targets. The positions held by Israel and the Palestinian Autonomy before the outbreak of current fighting was in accordance with aqreements signed by both parties, accords in which the Palestinians were obligated to settle disputes through peaceful means and negotiations (Arafat’s letter to Rabin of September 3rd 1993) and which obliged the Palestinians to dismantle terrorist organization, collect illegal weapon and stop anti-Israeli incitement. Therefore, any attacks by such organizations on any Israeli target are a clear violation of the commitments undertaken by the Palestinians, and hence completely illegitimate.
No sane individual can truely expect Israel on the one hand to make concessions to the Palestinians yet on the other accept a tolerable level of violence. The Palestinians cannot on the one hand demand the right to target certain groups of Israelis any time they see fit, while at the same time demand of Israel to grant them the full rights they feel they deserve. It’s one or the other.

Injustice is not something the Palestinians alone have had to suffer, and the Arab-Israeli conflict is not about good versus evil, one side which is right and another which is wrong. It is about two peoples with conflicting aspirationss and interests, and neither one can claim to be the sole victim of the events that have plagued this region for decades now. Do Israelis who have had family members killed have sanction to go out and kill as many Palestinians as possible? Does anyone who feels he might have been wronged by someone deserve to go out and take his revenge on the world?

Some Palestinians feel they have suffered injustice. So what? Welcome to the club! We have our grievances too, shall I point fingers and begin demanding they be addressed as well? Or are the only ones who deserve justice those who would resort to the basest means? Palestinians’ notion of injustice do not in any way justify suicide bombings, nor do they automatically make it Israel’s responsibility and duty to address these grievances.

Peace will arrive through compromise and settlement. Each suicide bombing makes that goal harder to reach, hardens minds and poisons souls, furthering any prospects for peace. That is what organizations like Hamas are after. If not for these “heroics”, the Palestinians probably would have had their own country already. There are many people around here who have suffered personal grief, both Israelis and Palestinians, and yet continue to make an effort for peace. The only self deceit is of those who romanticise the motivations of people who are nothing but murderers.

To begin with, the security barrier currently under construction is not a wall, it’s a fence. The watch towers and meters high walls one regularly sees in the media contitute about 5% of the barrier’s make up, and are to be found only near Jerusalem and near Qalqilya, where gunmen repeatedly opened fire on motorists travelling on a major highway nearby.

Other than that, no doubt about it: the fence is bad. It’s bad for the Palestinians, it’s bad for the Israelis, even the settlers hate it. But worst of all hate it the Hamas, the Islamic Jihad and all the rest of that cuddly group, which is why as long as no agreement is reached between Israelis and Palestinians, as long as the Palestinian Authority refuses to live up to its obligations (under both the Oslo Accords and the U.N. backed RoadMap for Peace) to dismantle and disarm these groups, the fence is the lesser of evils.
Last week two Palestinian suicide bombers from Jenin were caught on their way to a school in the northern Israeli town of Yokneam. They were caught because instead of travelling the 30km between the two places, the fence forced them to travel a distance 3 times greater and they were apprehended on the way. As I said, the fence is bad – but other things are much worse.

Plawolf – the Hamas and Islamic Jihad are movements dedicated to the destruction of Israel. They are not about peaceful co-existance, they are not about two states for two peoples, they are for wiping out Israel, and taking as many Israelis as possible with it. Not everyone with an issue deserves to have his “grievances” addressed.

Originally posted by Viper01
My advice to those of you who share my opinions: Do not get too involved in this matter, do not get too intimate; there’s a slight probability that you’ll end up wrongfully being called an antisemite or something in that direction, most likely due to reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with antisemitism at all. I’m not saying that i. e. Skythe represents a potential threat, after all he’s a fair and apparently rational person who deserves respect. He is entitled to his opinions. But, please, for your own sake, watch your steps when you tread on the path of criticism. Many dangers lurk along it.

APPARENTLY rational person, Viper ?
Show me one case in which I unjustly called someone an anti-semite when he was simply criticising Israel. Show me one case in which my criticism of you or any other person who frequents this board was not based on a factual rational basis. Show me one case.
Meanwhile, allow me to give you a piece of advice: If you can’t hold your own in an arguement, next time just come better prepared rather than accusing your opposition of dirty play.

Saw it yesterday, it was brilliant. The battle at Minas Tirith was simply breathtaking. The Nazgul attacks, the Oliphants battle, the catapult exchange, the Army of the Dead, it was all quite unbelievable. Needless to say, the rest of the movie was great too. I thought they did Shelob really well, the scenes at Minas Morgul and the the Black Gate were exciting too.

I did miss two things though:
1. Why didn’t they mention Denethor also had a palantir? It explains a lot of his actions in the book, why he was not up to defending Gondor.
2. The Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate, when he presents Aragorn and Gandalf with Frodo’s belongings. Would have been a nice twist right at the end.