There always are ROE (even in real combat situations) and they are not designed to handicap one aircraft in particular but generaly help the pilots going through the whole exercise/mission without going through the “bubble”, collide or fly their jet into the ground.
Beside they are the same for everyone.
Not by a long shot. In almost every NATO exercise, the Red Team is given a set of “rules of engagement” that defines what they are emulating, it can go from a “high end threat” to a very “low one”. One of the flying teams might be heavily handicaped by the ROE´s, actually, thats very normal.
One example, in the latest TLP 2009-4, in Albacete, the Ala 15 Hornets were asked to go from the “evolved R77 capable fulcrum” to very basic BFM training in diferent missions.
There are, literaly, hundreds of texts describing what i have posted above…
*So the USAF is saying the 22 was unbeatable (probably referring to the main exercise)
*The british “source” was saying the Rafale lost badly against the 22 and the EF and Rafale did not meet
*The frenchies are saying they actually won against the 22 and typhoon
The best sumary of this entire topic… 😀
If you dont mind i am going to copy your text and use it on a Portuguese language forúm.
Cheers
I don’t know this particular beer, but I’m really found of beers in general (especially german and belgian ones), can you tell me more about that one, please ? Where is it from ? and how does it taste ? 🙂
*EDIT*
Ho! and her’es my contribution:
Merry christmas!
Its Portuguese, its a 6,2º red beer, a pilsner. Strong flavoured, it goes very well with a decent steak.
Cheers and Merry Christmas to everybody.
Look, no one denies the advantage (not so big the EF fans would like) the EF has over the F 35 at high speed/high altitudes, when EF is with a few AAMs, no EFT. After all, that’s why in the charts regarding speed and acceleration, the F 35 was compared to Rafale, Gripen, J 10 and Su 30 MK, in order to look good, but not to EF.
But look at the comment of gen. Davis, ex-F 35 progam manager and former F 15 program manager said about F 15: in 30 years of operations, on average, an F 15 cumulated 10-15 min in supersonic and the highet operational speed recorded was 1.3M !
Where do i sign?
I agree with you.
but the lack of an operational helmet, limitations with PIRATE, and some other areas relating to equipment maturity mean that Typhoon in service may not quite match Typhoon as modelled in JOUST
There was this story told by a Spanish pilot in wich a gagle of pre block 5 “Phoons” made a poor figure of themselves because of dreadful MMI integration and software glitches.
Something like in some exercise (or test) they had detected one single “blip” from “red air”, and sudendly in their radar screens appeared the entire “invincible armada”! They made a 180º turn and got the hell out of there.
What had happened? Each and every aircraft was getting “bips/pings” from diferent sensors, Pirate, radar, DASS. Instead of combining those signals, the MMI interface presented every single “ping” has an individual boggey.
End of story, an entire gaggle of Typhoons run away of one single Mirage F1!
Mind you, i have read that story a loooonng time ago, so i am probably getting the details all wrong (Pirate in pre block 5!), but the general idea was what i´ve described above.
Cheers
Yes, but they fail to mention the distance the EF is capable of SC-ing. As far only USAF released official figures about the speed and distances for F 22 in SC. How long will EF SC at 1.5M, How long at 1.2M With what load, if any? Don’t you find odd that they are vague about this?
Mach 1.5 SC range? Not much range, IF any, IF the aircraft was completely clean, with the internal tanks half empty, the lightest pilot that they could found and after clicking a certain buton that overrides the EJ200 normal thrust settings. Its not an operational speed, far from it, probably the fastest speed that was atained in tests, IF it was atained (what i´ve heard and i have no official confirmation of any sort was something like “Warton, September 2006, IPA5, Mark Bowman”, it could be true or it could be complete bullsh…). A lot of “IF´s”, i admit.
Mach 1.2 SC? Between mach 1.1 and mach 1.2 i would go with those Norwegian pdf numbers, or in alternative with whatever JWCook says. Our Australian forumer colegue has been in those “for private eyes only” tupperware meetings/military briefings full of brass and industry officials in wich the Eurofighter Typhoons capabilities were described by RAF personell. Between him, Scorpion, a certain “two times award winner” defense journo and AW´s Douglas Barrie, those are the four best “public open sources” that i know for this program.
Cheers
I am not inventing anything.
Just as I posted except for comments concering speed increase due to increaced thrust engines (presumably EJ220) I have seen only ONE webpage site Mach 1.5 (& the english verion of the site DOES NOT say Mach 1.5).
Oh yes you are… You were presented with two official pages, not one, and you were told by me that the first time that this number appeared was in the old official Eurofighter page that was revamped in the late (November) 2006, in that same page, those numbers were presented in Germain and in English.
In those three pages there´s not one single connection between speed and uprated engines. Actually it is clearly stated in all the involved texts that this supercruise speed is obtained with the actual EJ200. I dont know where you get this idea of increased thrust engines (“Der hohe Leistungsüberschuss der EJ 200-Triebwerke”/”Le surcroît de puissance des réacteurs EJ200 permet d’atteindre la forte accélération indispensable pour le combat longue portée, à haute altitude et à vitesse supersonique” means that the EJ200 has specific excess thrust, something that is known for ages, not that you need a new uprated engine, surely you can understand the concept…).
I do find highly amusing that the same person that dismiss the Mach 1.6 maximum speed for the F-35A presented in the official LM page has being too “slow” and merely a “KPP”, dismiss official Eurofighter information because the speed is too “fast” and only achievable with uprated engines, when that is not stated anywhere.
Nationalistic bias? Surely not…
The only Mach 1.5 I have seen is that Mach 1.5 is possible with uprated engines (presumably EJ220) & a NON ENGLISH page on ONE Eurofighter webpage. Every other credible source says Mach 1.2 or Mach 1.3.
You are inventing things…
There are/were three diferent official pages from EUROFIGHTER GMBH that state mach 1.5 supercruise, one, the official Austrian Eurofighter page (http://www.eurofighter.at/austria/td_lu.asp), another one the official Switzerland Eurofighter GMBH page (http://www.eurofighter.ch/1024/fr/eurofighter/roles/bvr/bvr.html), and then the old (2006) official Eurofighter.com page. In none of them there´s one single mention of an uprated EJ200 connection.
Some slightly better news: Only one fast jet squadron is actually being cut now (a Harrier squadron), whilst another squadron (Harrier or Tornado) won’t be decided until after the defence review. I hope it’s a Tornado squadron that goes to be honest, it’s the difference between losing a squadron of planes (that can in turn extend the life of the overall fleet as spares) and losing the entire capability of Carrier strike if we lose all the Harriers.
And from the sounds of it, only the Nimrod MR2’s are being retired, with the MRA4s simply being delayed by 12 months.
From 2004 till now, the RAF “won” two and a half sqn´s of Typhoons and lost three sqn´s of Tornados Mk3, three sqn´s of jag´s and three sqn´s of Sea jets…
Block 4s are supposed to carry 6 internally, and they’re less than a decade away.
So no improvements to the APG-81 are going to be happening either? The Typhoon is going to be playing catch up, and that’s if these improvements are even funded.
Might is the big IF.
Completely agree.
I was just pointing that is only fair that if we are going to use in an argument “improvements” that quite recently LM said that its not pursuing (the six internal AIM-120 arrangement) or “stealthy” caracteristics of an external pylon with a “nineX” on it, than its only fair to point to some impressive features of the road map of the RAFALE EW or the fact that the proposed AESA set for the Typhoon has more 20% TR modules than the AN/APG-81 on a stereable antena…
Those eurocanards improvements are not budgeted? Well, that “six internal AIM120” arrangement isnt either.
Cheers
And if its Friday where you are at, have a beer.
Now, thats a fine idea!

And i admit being an unashamed fanboy of this particular one…
Cheers
Doesn’t look like an F-16 HuD to me, though just a fraction is shown. Quite some time ago someone posted a video were HuD imagery from an F-16MLU was shown with the Typhoon in sight.
The video that you are mentioning was the one from the Esquadra 301.
I´ve thought that the images had come from that video, but you and arthuro are right, it doesnt look like a Viper HUD.
If i am not mistaken, those were taken at “Typhoon Meet” by a Portuguese F-16 OCU from Esquadra 301 “Jaguares” stationed at Monte Real.
Well, it seems that i have won my own personal “fanboy” spurs!
Go figure.
Cheers
Here’s the thing- the only advantage of the F-35 that you’re acknowledging is its low observability, while downplaying any advantages in avionics capability that exist. In terms of raw performance, I’m sure the Typhoon is faster, but are the raw performance advantages such, that they are game changing? Based upon remarks of those who’ve flown the plane, its neither sluggish in acceleration or in handling, and it has very good high alpha performance too. Combined with its other advantages, that has to count for something both in BVR and WVR. Shortly after entering service it will have a 6AAM stealth carriage for AIM-120s, as well as stealthy pylons for external -9xs. Yes it’s possible to keep upgrading the avionics on the Typhoon and Rafale, but the question is will the owners have the budget to put all of the latest gee whiz features on, which the F-35 will have from the start.
Stealthy pylons for 9X´s?!
Carriage for six internal AIM120 Early?!
That´s when? a decade from now? And have those improvements been budgeted?
If that´s “early and stealthy” can we count a bigger antena/aperture AESA set for typhoon? And the improvement “road map” for the Spectra EW set? 😉
In the time frame for those “stealthy and early” improvements on the F-35A you might very well find that those advantages in avionics capability might very well be on the other plane. Might happen.
(On the other hand looking at the behavior of the European MOD´s and their prospective budgets, you´re probably right)
Cheers
And now for something completely diferent!
I will sure survive the night
there was a sleep when I come alive
I’ll make it run towards the city light
it always keeps me on the right sideI will sure survive the night
there was a sleep when I come alive
I’ll make it run towards the city light
it always keeps me on the right sideWhen we come alive
We never stop we won’t give in
When we come alive
We keep it up until we winThe time is now
We won’t back down
When we stand united we can save the day
Eurofighter
It’s now
We’re back in town
we can do whatever, dance the night awayDeep inside made up my mind
I won’t back down cause stopped at me now
I’m on the road, this is me you know
and I’m sure I’ll get there somehowWhen we come alive
We never stop we won’t give in
When we come alive
We keep it up until we winchorus
EurofighterWe can all the save the night
when we come alive
United we standchorus
http://www.metrolyrics.com/eurofighter-lyrics-etype.html
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!