The Mig-29 has a bad reputation as a fighter; however the electronics package they export is usually very disappointing. So much so, that the Mig-29 has a very bad reputation well below its actual ability.

It is much like how the British ordered some fighters like the P-51 Mustangs, but the US considered supercharger and turbocharger information classified. So the early versions of the fighters were delivered without superchargers or turbochargers. The British nicknamed the naturally aspirated version of the P-51 the castrated Mustang.

India has learned the hard why that the electronics packages that the Soviets have sold them are not as good as the best Soviet electronics. I think that is part of the reason that India is using third parties and indigenous electronics on some of their newer aircraft.

It is typical for countries to withhold their most advanced technology and only sell the previous version of technology, so if the at weapons are turned back against the seller, it gives the seller the advantage.

Technology is also withheld because there is a greater likelihood of technology getting into competitors or enemy’s hands for reverse engineering.

However these are not always the cases, sometimes we are selling our allies more advanced technology then our own military standard issue.

The standard issue F-15 and F-16 that the US military has is often not as advanced as what we sell our allies. It is a matter of money, we can afford to upgrade all of our F-15s and F-16s and it really does not make much sense to upgrade all of them since many of them will be retired and the ones that stay in service are likely to get more upgrades in the future including more F-22’s.

Why fix up the old family car, if you plan to replace it shortly?

Even in cases where countries are allowed to buy the most advanced equipment, they often cannot afford to, or do not need to. A lot of countries even by secondhand equipment.

Add to this the USAF had greater confidence in Lockeed than they did in Northrop.

Part of the reason the F-22 won the contract was that it flew much more than the basic flight tests, whereas the F-23 only flew the basic flight tests. The tests seem to indicate the F-22 was more mission ready and was less of a maintenance hog.

I think the other reasons they chose the F-22 was that the cost was lower and that it was easier to maintain and upgrade. Therefore the maintenance costs and upgrade costs and longevity of the F-22 would probably be better and more capable.

Even though the F-23 likely had a higher speed and more range, more payload, and a lower RCS?

Think these gentlemen would respectfully disagree: “MUCH faster than the YF-22”

The F-23 was faster, but I think calling it much faster is an exaggeration and speculation.

I don’t think either aircraft pushed the all the way to the max speed.

”Oh yeah? How about you pick up a rifle and defend your own country because were getting tired of your ungrateful attitude.” Then we realized the protesters were right; there is no reason for U.S. troops to be in Japan.

Sounds an awful lot like the protesters in South Korea. There were a few military officials and politicians that publicly suggested we pulled our troops out and save money, since it costs so much to defend a country.

The next day the South Korean government essentially pleaded for US troops to stay and basically apologized for the protesters. The protesters also seemed to come to the realization that economic impact it would have on their country if the US pulled out and the increased chances that North Korea would pull something stupid started to really scare them.

The North Korean oppression is so bad that it can be seen with the naked eye by space.

CNN really hyped up the situation big-time. They made it sound like our nation was defenseless, the F-22 was useless. They made it sound like a major national security threat and F-22 was useless. CNN was using negative hype to dramatize the situation to try to keep viewers attention. So they have all this negative misleading hype for about a half an hour before the interview. They finally have an interview with the military, and the military dispels their hype real quick. As usual there was no apology from CNN for misleading the public.

CNN would be the best media outlet if they did not have such a far lean to the left, if they did not hype things, if they would be more technically and factually correct. If they would stop stating their opinions as facts.

CNN should stop manipulating the news politically, and just stick to the facts. They are supposed to report the news, not manufacture it.

Every aircraft in history has had glitches when it first entered service and some throughout its life span, the F-22 is no exception. Having a few glitches is typical of one off an aircraft’s first deployments, there is nothing surprising about it.

Despite the fact it is typical to have technical problems, particularly early in a program, it is not surprising for the media and people with a political agenda to try to capitalize on it.

well, interesting story and explanation as to what happened and how it happened, and of course you have credible sources and links for that so we can verify as to that is exactly what happened, since what everybody else is presenting here or claiming you are asking for evidence or sources…?:)

Most of what I said was made public. I think the family appealed to get the records opened to the public, since the war was over it was a reasonable request to release. Most if not all the information was made public during a court hearing. The flight reports, the investigations, crew testimonies, the AWACS data, radar data was all we opened and read investigated by the military. The findings were scrutinized in court and made public.

I do not know any links off hand, but if you do a search I am sure you can come up with several sites. I am sure many come to different conclusions, but you are regardless the data is still the same. I have never seen all the data on the Internet, but there has been several summaries on the Internet.

I think a lot of the sites that hosted the information overwritten it because the court case has been over a long time ago and the family is more concerned with ongoing investigation to find Scott or his body.

I doubt you will find a place that will pack it up and such a nice convenient easy to understand technical explanation as I have said. However I suspect some of the summaries are still out there, so you can reach your own conclusions.

No such thing. It was on another forum that it was doubted. I asked the writer of that post (a friend of mine) for his reasons. As I didn’t want to be involved with perpetrating ‘dubious’ information I immediately notified this forum.

It would seem, what you actually did is; you were not happy with the other forum because they did not agree with the alleged e-mail, so you posted it here to see if we would agree with your theory. Then when we point out discrepancies, instead of accepting the truth or debating and supporting your claims with evidence, you attack.

Do try to follow your own logic.

I have supported my logic with facts. I already have posted enough logic and facts to debunk the e-mail.

I grovel at the feet of a genius. What do you think a forum is? I will tell you that it is a place for debate. You seem to think that it is for mannerless put-downs and tantrums.

I have been debating. I have put forward my logic and supported my claims with facts.

You have ignored our logic and facts that discredit the hearsay e-mail. Instead you attack us because you want to live your delusion.

Having served in the intelligence services after my flying career I was of course completely unaware of that!

Under Stalin or Hitler? We have different standards, we do not naturally assume hearsay is true. Hearsay might trigger an investigation, but in the relatively free and honest world we try to follow logic and evidence when we are investigating, not hearsay.

I find it hard to believe that you were in the intelligence service (at least not in the free world). Part of being a good investigator is not propping up your theories, but to try to poke holes in them, to knock them down. If your theory stands and does not deflate then you are probably on the right trail. If you do not challenge your own theories (or take heed to external challenges), you are not doing proper investigative work. Under some circumstances it would be called framing not to investigate contradictions and not to test your theories.

If you were to imprison someone on hearsay, that would be false imprisonment.

I still have my doubts about this; even if true it’s still a blatant piece of right-wing propaganda. Why didn’t this guy come forward sooner? His information would assuredly have been of interest to the authorities. If he’d acted on his suspicions he could even have prevented the attacks.

That was part of my point. It is a common con to give the appearance of credibility. In this case we have hearsay, supporting hearsay.

If Pat Gilmore so willing to send out e-mails and post on blog(s), you would think he would talk to the media. You would think after the world wide outcry for evidence, that he or his other crew members would have volunteered the information. By law, if a crew knew something like that you would think they would come forward, by law they are required to. You would think some of the passengers on the flight would have noticed, remembered and came forward. I would think the crew the passengers would be figuratively beating down the doors of the 9/11 investigators before there was even an outcry.

You would think of the media and the investigators would be able to sniff out such a big story and that it would be a matter of public record in a big way. There would be a big media storm over something like this, if it was true.

I am right wing, and I like a lot of the patriotic things that were said, however I am not going to go along was something that has a political message that I like if it is largely based on fiction that is quite likely just part of a publicity stunt to promote a movie.

I do not know if it is true, and will reserve judgement on that until it can be proved – either way

On the contrary. You seem to wish to think it is true. You even said “it rings true”. You just cannot seem to except that the facts do not match your wishes.

The hard evidence indicates the story is untrue.

He gives no details about himself in his profile that leads me to believe he is an authority on anything.

A person’s profile description on this message board is just hearsay. I can’t understand why you believe so much in hearsay, yet this regard sound Erie and hard evidence. You have received several good arguments and facts debunking the e-mail. You want to believe the e-mail, but you give no real evidence or sound arguments that it is true. Instead you attack others.

You are in such heavy denial what you do not realize that you have asked asks for its and you have gotten some expert answers. Just because people do not want their credentials around does not mean they are not experts.

Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence. Hearsay is not extra ordinary evidence. The evidence we already posted debunks the e-mail.

You want someone to publicly flaunt their credentials, well I got some. The 9/11 commission. I wonder if you will even thake heed of official public experts with credentials in a public criminal procedure.

“The question has been raised about whether one or more of
the hijackers may have used pilot’s credentials in order to sit
in the cockpit with the pilots during the flight to facilitate
the takeover. In view of the requisite paperwork and other
procedures which must be followed to permit a jumpseat privilege,
there is no evidence that such a tactic was used by the
hijackers. They actually had reservations and sat in the seats
that they were assigned.”

Source
http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing7/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-01-27.pdf

One would think if Mohammad Atta had ever road in the jump seat on a passenger flight on a major airline that would be mentioned in the investigation, and it also would be mentioned many other public places by credible sources.

It’s funny this information is public yet people want to think that they got a chain letter e-mail or found something on a blog that the media would want to know and would jump on like a starving squirrel on the last acorn in the world, yet still months later it is virtually unknown. Perhaps the reason it has remained virtually unknown is that it is not credible. Would not you think the reason the media has not covered this e-mail is because it has no credibility?

We already debunked the e-mail you posted. You would not accept it, so I just debunked it even more. No matter how much you attack me, it will not convince me. If you still want to believe the e-mail fine go ahead, but do not expect us to believe it unless you can come up with some pretty good arguments and evidence.

Using your logic Einstein was an idiot because he failed math, Stephen Hawking is an idiot because he cannot write or speak, Edison was incompetent because he had so many failures, the Wright Brothers were failures because they crashed.

I am definitely no Pulitzer prizewinner, never claimed to be. If you want to criticize someone else’s spelling, perhaps you should work on your own spelling and grammar first.

I suspect that it is a fake. I suspect much of the information in the email is true, however I think it might be fabricated from facts. I am skeptical Pat Gilmore wrote the alleged emails and I supect much of the claims are false.

I also posted the letter on another forum. Somebody has said that he doesn’t believe it, so I have asked him to give his reasons for such a statement. I posted it in good faith as it came from a trusted source – a retired tin-pusher in Canada. If it does turn out to be bogus I will unreservedly apologise to our membership.

So you don’t think you have to support your claims, but anyone that doubt you has to?

Newforest’s has posted a very good skepticism to doubt your post. I don’t know if Newforest’s claims are true, but the logic of his skepticism is sound.

There is a pilot named Pat Gilmore in the database who is an ATPL. According to the database, his medical expired June 2005, but the writer of the letter claims he retired in May 2006.

Why should we spoon feed you every little detail about why we think it is fake? There are several things in the letter that makes me suspicious it is fake.

If you were professional pilot and someone else claimed to be a professional pilot and wanted to see the cockpit. While the visitor pilot that claimed to be certified on that type of aircraft was is in the jump seat proved to be very unfamiliar with the aircraft type, would not that set off an alarm bell?????? I would have escorted the visitor out of the cockpit immediately, and I would have radioed security to give him a little greeting and debriefing at the next destination, I would also alert the crew of the discrepancies and suspicions and asked them to keep an eye on him.

I suspect this e-mail may be a fake released as a publicity stunt to spark interest in their movie. I suspect you and your alleged trusted source has been duped.

I am not going to tell you every reason I think it is a fake, because the wrong people might be listening, so next time they could make a better fake. Discretion is part of security.

If it is publicly known that Atta flew from Baltimore to Atlanta on July 26, 2001, then why isn’t it listed?
* July 1, 2001: Atta flies from Boston to New York City.
* July 3, 2001: Atta flies from Newark to Fort Lauderdale.
* July 7 or July 8 or July 9, 2001: Atta fly from Miami to Madrid, Spain via Zurich.
* July 19, 2001: Return flight to America, Fort Lauderdale, Florida via Atlanta’s Hartsfield International Airport.
* Late July, 2001: Atta flies to Newark, New Jersey to meet with other hijackers in the area.
* July 30, 2001: Atta flies back from New Jersey to Florida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/profiles/generate_movements.php?name=Mohamed+Atta

Great post, link, plane, craftsmanship and documentation.

I wonder if he will be able to remember to fly when he gets done. I hope he puts in some stick time on some easier aircraft and knock the rust off his brain before he makes his maiden.