For those outside of the US I would remind you that I decided a long time ago we ( as in the US) need to stay out of your crap….saying that, this is bulll****. Just another case of another SSRI prescribed idiot that belonged locked up if he wasn’t mentally able to deal with society. Te government and Pharmaceutical companies have created these monsters, and it’s about time we start asking the real questions.

Business as usual then, eh?

Have you even bothered to read anything that I have written? I ADMITTED there is a problem. It is a societal problem and it needs to be addressed NOW. But you do not address a morality and ethical problem, in a Nation where liberty is supposed to be upheld, but controlling peoples lives.

If that is your idea of a Utopian society, then so be it. But I will be dammed if I don’t do my best to educate people over here and trying to stop it from happening.

Don’t worry, our nannycrats are hard at work:

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons

Summary:

Summary of 2013 legislation

Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:

Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
~120 specifically-named firearms
~Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one military characteristic
~Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds

Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
~Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test
~Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test
~Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans

Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.

Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
~Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment
~Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes and
~Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons

Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
~Background check of owner and any transferee;
~Type and serial number of the firearm;
~Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
~Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
~Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

This, coming from a woman who has a near impossible to obtain concealed carry permit in California. Do as I say, not as I do again. I do not and will not accept this from our “democratically elected leaders”.

Also, another great tidbit from a Statist:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/nadler-state-ought-have-monopoly-legitimate-violence

Summary: “But let me say, yes,” Nadler added. “One of the definitions of a nation state is that the state has a monopoly on legitimate violence. And the state ought to have a monopoly on legitimate violence.”

It’s only a conspiracy if you don’t chose to see what is right in front of your eyes.

You do NOT base the rule of law on an emotional response. If someone can not understand that basic fact, there is no point in debating with them.

How many people die a year from car accidents, heart disease, etc etc. 3000 people died on 9/11, so to “protect” us, we now have a myriad of laws that do nothing except destroy civil liberties, to the point that if you, as a US citizen, are deemed to be aiding or have any dealings with a “terrorist”, you may be sent to jail, indefinitely, no judge, no jury. I advocated for the “Patriot Act”, based on an emotional “rah rah” response, I thought we needed to keep ourselves safe. I found out I was wrong.

And most of us that own firearms do not consider them toys, but rather as tools. But hey, let’s keep arguing over an emotionally terrible issue, rather than deal with the facts.

I really wish I had more time to go through this thread and go point by point, but as of right now I don’t. I’ve been on vacation since Thursday and have been to work 4 out of 5 days, what can I say…I’m a good little capitalist (As long as I get my overtime and am taken care of of course, I know that I am needed therefore I will be used as long as I am compensated correctly, but then again, I digress as I tend to do.)

But, and I apologize for such a short comment, but what many Americans, let alone anyone else, doesn’t realize, is twofold.

A: History repeats itself time and time again, We really are no smarter, when you really get down to it. (I’m sure I’ll be flamed by a few for saying this, but it is the truth, human nature does not change, on a personal or national level.) We may think we have progressed….but it is only a progression of the masses being controlled by a few. I actually have my own interpretation of Nietzsche’s ideas, but to put it simply, the “The Death of God” has given rise to to “state”. Again, as I have said before, I am self taught and am in no ways a scholar, but I try my best when I can.

B: Some of us here in the states are fighting for one very basic thing. Personal Liberty. Period, end of story. Whether it is about the 1st or 3rd of 10th amendment, or the encroachment of the government into out entire lives, we are arguing and fighting against it. Honestly, the question I ask people over here is this. Who is the government to decide how best you live. Do you own yourself? Or do you need to obey some outside power, whether it be divine or democratically elected? I know that this will enable problems to happen, I know this system is not perfect. But what system is? Personally, the system in which I choose what I do is the most perfect system.

Please don’t kid yourselves, we have traded one religion (of a supreme being) for another, The State. Both are run by individuals hellbent on power and control. I choose neither.

This is why, from my perspective, this topic is not as simple as “Why do people have those terrible assault rifles”? Because if, and its a big if, but if and when those rifles deemed “unnecessary” are forcibly taken from the population:

A: There will be a blood bath

B: Someone can kill maybe half as many children with a “hunting rifle” in the same allotted time…..does that make it any worse?

As I have said, what happened is terrible, beyond words. But WE have a problem socially, and no amount of “control” will fix that until society wakes up and realizes it and of itself has a problem.

And no, I do not envy anyone at this point in this entire world with all of the crap going on. One reason I’m still single and childless, even though it is the one thing I have always wanted to be, a father and husband.

I apologize for taking an active role in this discussion, but as we all know, work and other things get in the way. I haven’t had time to read every post or anything that was written directly to me, but I will do my best to fix that as soon as I can.

However, I did read enough and can see where this discussion headed. What no one is talking about, on this forum or even here in the states, is why the 2nd is actually in the original Bill or Rights. Does anyone know why the Bill of Rights Exist, as amendments, to the US Constitution? The passed the Constitution as quickly as possible, for obvious reasons. However, quite a few of the original Framer’s realized the Constitution in and of itself was not enough.

The original 10 Amendments are rights, not privileges. They are there to guarantee the right forever, and as a right, the government may NOT intercede on them. “Rights” are endowed upon us by our creator, natural law, etc etc, however you want to look at it. They are not something that a governing body gives, and can take away. We here in the states (Well some of us, and even if it is only 5-10%, which when you do the math, is still a large amount of individuals) understand this very basic important fact. It isn’t just about the 2nd, it is about all 10. Like I said earlier, I do not want to derail this thread, but if this very basic fact can not be understood, then there really is no sense in debating this subject here or online.

Now, I will try to get back onto the topic. Is there a murder problem (with firearms) among youth in this country? Of course, you would have to be blind or an ideologue to disagree. But as someone else mentioned, and as I did, the inner city African-American youth is disproportionately a HUGE factor in this statistic. This does not make the problem any less sincere, but instead of “killing a right”, why don’t we as a nation get to the root of the problem? I mentioned legalizing drugs (that is the most important reason behind the “black on black” violence between youths). We, as a society, have to take a hard look at what we condemn and what we hold up as “The way to live”.

I am not from Europe, and I have only traveled to Spain once (Beautiful country and great people I might add), so that is the limit to my understanding of the demographics of each country. But I do have a bit of a grasp on ours, and to not understand the huge differences between them is a bit like passing a law without having any idea what is in it (Well, we did do that, but I digress).

The fact of the matter is, and this is where I draw my personal line in the sand. Do I want to live in an imperfect (but free) country, but as a society we try to make it better? Or do I want to live in a country where the oligarchs (yes, I used that term very seriously) decided how we are to live? I would much rather work to a better end, rather than be told how to. Am I a barbarian for that? Maybe, but I appreciate liberty and freedom.

I would just like to add, I have had a major “awakening” in the last eight years. I used to be a die hard Republican and supported Afghanistan and Iraq and all of the “rah rah” that went along with everything. However, I have come to realize that both of our political parties (There are only two that matter) are cut from the same cloth, what happens in DC is nothing more than theater. I do understand and completely believe that both parties are composed of nothing more than statist ( a few exceptions, but rare). I do not trust anything that comes out of the incestuous swamp known as DC. Call me a nut, but until I see that town get it’s act somewhat straight, they can keep their legislation to themselves.

And, I would also like to add that I apologize if my manner or personality has offended anyone, but I will not base my opinions on emotion or hope. The rule of law has room for neither, and that is how I am approaching this subject.

Finally, I saw something posted on Facebook and it summed it up perfectly. It basically read “We do not have a gun control problem, we have morality problem”. Morality can not be legislated, and that is why the problem is something society needs to take a good long look at.

It’s no problem at all Lincoln 7, I actually have the day off but it seems that your weather over there has decided to stop right over my area and I’ve been in the soup all day 😀 So what better way to spend it, other than cleaning clothes and cooking?

I will just go point by point:

1.Section 1 Firearms : We do not differentiate between 7.62 or 22. One reason is, and this is where I get into arguments all the time with sportsmen, is that they will say who needs an assault/black rifle? I ask them what caliber they use to hunt, and a very popular cartridge is the 30-06 of M1 Garand fame from WWII. Again, it’s the slippery slope theory, but it’s been proven right time and time again over here. If you were asking about a security system, such as a safe? There is no law requiring any such device, but most responsible owners have them locked up for safety, let alone loosing them in a fire.

2. Police: We (well a lot of us) would never allow cursory inspections of our homes, to be blunt. And not just because of firearms, but because we don’t believe in the Police being able to do whatever they want without a court order, and anyone that would try to pass this by the use of legislation would have a very hard time. This would totally destroy the 4th ammendment (Illegal Search and Seizure). Again, this is another lengthy discussion by itself.

3. Person to Person sales: If two people want to transfer the firearm with paperwork, they can go to a licensed dealer, pay a fee and have the paperwork done. One thing to remember; there is not supposed to be a national/state/local database of all firearms in this country, although reports are coming out that this isn’t exactly true. Therefore paperwork should be “useless”. But yes, otherwise, those firearms are “lost”. We have a saying that it was such a shame, but all of my gold and firearms were lost in a tragic boating accident.

4. Prohibited Firearms: While there aren’t any “prohibited” firearms, fully automatic and explosive devices are tightly controlled. As an individual, if I want to pay a “tax” (Ironically enough, this is how they “banned” certain classes of firearms, they did not make them illegal, just very expensive to own/buy/sell). You have to have a special license on top of the tax, and following the 1986 machine gun law no one except for Law Enforcement/Gvt etc etc can own, buy or sell a fully automatic firearm and other such devices made from 1986 and afterwards. But what we call “pre-ban” or “pre 86′ ” are legal to own and operate, provided you have your papers in order.

5. Carry License: This gets tricky as the states define these laws and not the Federal Government. However, here in Pennsylvania, I can go to the local courthouse, fill out some paperwork, and expect to see the concealed carry permit within a few weeks, the waiting period is not long. They will of course do a background check. However, Pennsylvania is also what we call an Open Carry State. This means that I can walk around carrying my defensive handgun (or in reality anything else) as long as it is visible. This also gets tricky, for we have two counties at opposite corners of the state that hold our two largest cities (Philadelphia and Pittsburgh) that have issues with the inner city violence I previously mentioned. So, even though State Law says one thing, these two counties try to supersede state law, although their cases have been thrown out of State Court.

One thing to remember, and one thing I try to teach people about over here even, is that originally the United States was supposed to be more like the European Union. Each “State” was to have most of the control in it’s hands, while the Federal Government was to be the “mediator” between states and obviously form a single foreign policy. It is much more complicated than that, but I am researching and learning daily as this is not taught anymore. Originally, there was not supposed to be a strong central government, but that was thrown out of the window during the Civil War and we haven’t looked back since, which in my eyes, is a problem.

I also want to point out that I am no expert on any of this, but I try to learn as much as I can and at least have a decent understanding of it and any other subject I talk about.

I agree, I don’t envy any of us in this country when we have a political class that in all reality does not care about us at all, but then again, we have the government people have voted in. However, I am supposed to be living in a Republic, and not a Democracy, but as usual, I am getting off subject.

I would also like to say that while this massacre is obviously terrible, it also makes great news headlines. Did you hear about the gunmen that stopped his killing spree while in another “No Gun Zone” when someone, breaking the law by carrying defensively, simply unholstered his weapon and the gunmen then turned the firearm on himself and took his own life? Most haven’t, it would not fit in with the agenda. Most of these “crazies” are just smart enough to understand, if you want to go on a killing spree, you are better off doing it where you believe no one will be able to fight back. We don’t hear of to many people walking into a police station looking for a fight, do we?

While it is easy to say “We need to ban all of these terrible firearms”, we are really not, as a society, getting to the root of the problem. Most of these mass shootings are being committed by young, white males who are outcast of society. Why are they? What kind of medications are they on? I do not know how it is across the pond, but doctors here in the states like to hand out anti-depressants and other mind altering psychiatric drugs like candy. While there is a time and place for these medications, I believe they are often over prescribed, since “we” as Americans would rather take a pill to fix all of our ills rather than get to the bottom of the issue.

Again, most of the murders, a disproportionate number based on population, are of young, black males in inner cities. Why should I, someone who lives within 100 miles of the inner cities of Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington DC, give up my rights because of a bunch of gang bangers? I could say a solution to that problem would be to shoot on sight within the borders of the cities, but, that would not be rational, would it? I want to get to the bottom of these problems without infringing on anyone else’s rights. But since politicians are more interested in getting reelected, and any discussion of race in this country will get you immediately branded a racist, nothing ever changes.

That is what is so shockingly sad and disturbing. We have the answers in front of our faces, but no one is willing to tackle and talk about these tough issues because it is not politically expedient.

And finally, yes, there are well over 300 million firearms in this country and growing. But, and this is pretty easy to figure out, how many of those firearms are used maliciously? The percentage is very low.

Great conversation gents, hopefully I can help anyone out with any further questions/ideas.