Icare9Referring to the USAAF serial number website, produces the following:-
44398 to RAF as Liberator B.VI KK317. Struck Off Charge (scrapped) Mar 14, 1946.
So it (and hopefully its crew) survived the war.
I think it also served with 70 Squadron, although this was obviously a 37 Sqdn production…
37 Squadron started operating Liberators from October 1944. From its base at Tortorella in Italy the squadron attacked targets in Italy, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Bulgaria and Albania, as well as dropping supplies to the Yugoslav partisans. The squadron also took part in Allied operations to mine the Danube, blocking it to Axis shipping.
On 2 October 1945 the Squadron moved to Palestine but returned to Egypt in December where it was disbanded on 31 March 1946.
So, sometime between October 1944 and March 1936 would likely be the date for this cigarette box to have been made.
I would suggest you join the RAF Liberator website to see if anyone else can help with more on the probable crew for KK317.
One reference to KK317 on there is as follows:
Guestbook Entry No. 310
Author. Ian Quinn
Email Address. [email]quinns@hkstar.com[/email]
Homepage.
Message. F/L John BUMSTEAD 37 SQ B-24 Pilot Dec 1944 onwards. John passed away in New Zealand on Sept 24th after retirement from extensive airline flying post war. He was given a good send off at the Motecillo Veteran’s Home in Dunedin with the local RSA paying tribute. His son, a very good friend of mine and also a pilot, has John’s immaculate logbooks with strike photos attached.John flew most of his ops in KK317. He would be most interested to hear from any suriving crew members that may remember John. My email is [email]quinns@hkstar.com[/email] Many thanks Ian Quinn Hong Kong
I hope that helps!
Icare9Rich: Sorry, I’m just an enthusiastic amateur and really just find quite a bit via Google.
All I can say is that after becoming the RAF’s first Long Distance Transport Squadron (the reason they were reactivated so quickly after being disbanded) the Dakota I and III’s they had on strength would have rapidly been taken on by other Squadrons, no doubt in time for Arnhem operations.
There are a wealth of books on the C47 and Dakota, so no doubt someone will point you in the right direction for the best one covering 511 aircraft.
I don’t know of any detailed 511 Sqdn history other than those readily available on the internet.
I’m sure there are also a lot of Forum Pals who could help.
I suggest you start a thread asking for FL517 details and anything on 511.
HNY
Icare9Hi, kev35 and HNY
A little extra info from the Squadron History:
When the Liberators were transferred to No 246 Squadron in December 1944, the squadron became solely York equipped. It continued trooping flights to the Middle East and the Far East until disbanding on 7 October 1946. However, nine days later the squadron reformed, again at Lyneham and still equipped with Yorks.
So it potentially could be moving personnel immediately in the period leading up to disbandment, transporting some home.. in which case a tragic accident after the rigours of War.
001 BECKETT FN 3045024 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
002 BOWERMAN RJN 1868711 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
003 CLARKE RC 1810065 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
004 COURTENAY DH 158785 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
005 COWELL D 3040312 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
006 DAVIES MW 3010798 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
007 FLOOD F 3020110 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
008 GRIFFITHS GA 3011462 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
009 JOHNS DJ 202780 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
010 KENDRICK I 1616132 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
011 KIRK R 3011019 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
012 LATHAM JF 3011402 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
013 LEITCH JJ 505185 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE
014 MCPHERSON CJ 54383 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
015 MURPHY TC 1864387 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
016 SAWKINS L 1313515 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
017 STILWELL RLM 1721897 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
018 WESTBURY WN 1815985 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
001 ARMSTRONG WW 425875 511 SQDN 06/10/1946 ROYAL NEW ZEALAND AIR FORCE
Can’t find any other 511 personnel, perhaps G-ASEA’s book will have further details to make up the 21 lost.
They lost another aircraft on 20th November 1946 near Suez, with all 6 crew being buried there. Looks as if maintenance could have become an issue after losing so many personnel in October.
Hope that is of some help.
Icare9From the Spitfire Site link given above:-
The RBL’s management support for the Spitfire has been dwindling for quite some time, and two reviews of the project have been made in the course of this year. It was found that “recruiting and fundraising achievements have been minimal”. Somewhat controversially, it is also said that there is “no evidence of its having raised awareness of the Legion and its work” and that:
“As an icon of WW2, the replica focuses the public’s mind away from this [the Legion’s – Ed.] message and onto the past”The opponents claim that even considering the problems of recession in 2009, the project made a modest profit of just under £5,000 for the RBL even if a large number of events had had to be cancelled.
Precisely! “As an icon of WW2, the replica focuses the public’s mind away from the Legion’s message and onto the past”…..
Isn’t that the point? “We will remember them”….
Now more than ever, the veterans of WW2, Korea are increasingly frail and in need of RBL help…. but they are of the past… so will the Welfare Officers stop visiting and assisting?
I do hope the RBL will decide to ditch their current advisers and review the decision. The RBL Ripon Branch deserve better than this shoddy treatment, and perhaps the RBL should simply donate the replica back to them, not sell it for gain themselves….
Of course, if the RBL considers the Spitfire to be an icon of WW2 which focuses their message onto the past, what hope for an icon of WW1 the poppy? Would they ditch that in favour of a modern icon? (perhaps an i-pod which caused a Royal Navy sailor to cry when taken away from him?).
Sorry, RBL, this decision is so wrong on every intelligent level. If they continue in this lemming like style, the Poppy Fund will dry up in very quick time….
Icare9Vin1: Why have you added a copyright to a 1940 photo?
You’ve been told it’s not any of those you suggest, that it’s not Waddensee and which aircraft it actually is. Are you entitled to copyright this photo?
Icare9So it seems that Tiger does go in the rough!
Does his caddy tell him the number of strokes to get it in the hole?
I hear the number of ladies is now up to 9, so he obviously played the 18 holes including the back 9……..
coat, hat, driver ooer!!
Icare9The general usage was mainly American and I came across it frequently in 1960’s and 70’s when regularly visiting the US. It always seemed to have a sporting connection with American Football, but as I pointed out to them, they measure the plays in yardages of multiples of 10!!
I believe it is connected to the length of ammunition belts in B17’s (waist guns? where it wasn’t done to expend all your ammunition blazing away at one target, as then you would have given “everything” and have nothing left for anything else coming your way.
I have not, however, had the pleasure or opportunity to examine any B17’s or other aircraft or Vietnam era helicopter gunships, as to the actual length of the ammunition belts.
Who has conclusive proof?
Icare9I’m surprised the RAAF didn’t want to take on 230 Sqdn (or at least its Code!!)
I think the group photo shows aircraft “P” i.e. 4X-P, and not indicating a PP serial number.
Icare9And the Melody…. ME110D1 !! 😀
Icare9The heavy bomber fleet was designed to meet Air Ministry criteria that before the War posited that the “bomber would always get through” so what it needed was defensive armament for daylight operations. As the early bomber crews in Whitleys, Wellingtons soon discovered was that they simply did not have the defensive capability required to fend off day fighters, hence the switch to night bombing. That rendered the front turret practically useless, except for some flak and searchlight supressant. The Lancaster was based on the Manchester and that was designed to have a ventral turret, in a similar position to where the H2S dome was fitted.
It might have been a better modification to have changed the nose configuration to have a ventral chin turret to fire below and behind to counter the schrage musik attack position. That would have kept the CoG similar and have saved many more crews.
Trying to hit a target when you are squinting into a 300 mph headwind with rain or snow in pitch darkness and at a closing speed of over 500 mph would have been luck rather than skill.
To sit in front of a freezing 300 mph gale for up to 10 hours? Heroes all, the size of cojones required would have restored the CoG!!
Icare9Didn’t know about the Sunderland, but I think that was why my Dad always used to tease about any strange aircraft I used to run to look at coming in to land at Southend Airport. He was RAMC and had no clue about aircraft but he’d always shout “It’s a Sunderland”. Now I believe this is where he got that idea from! As the Meteor was only a few roads away, I’m surprised he didn’t latch on to that!
Anyway, throw me a bone and I’ll run for it, so here (thanks to Geoff501) are 5 deaths on 21/10/47:-
CHAMBERLAIN E 1126413 – 21/10/1947 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
GURDIN AR 3100187 – 21/10/1947 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
HARVEY WA 199344 – 21/10/1947 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
RYAN JJ 1796817 – 21/10/1947 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
WRIGHT DR 3077585 – 21/10/1947 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
Of course there may have been other Nationalities, but it’s a start for you experts to relate Names to this aircraft.
Icare9Very interesting!
I knew about the B17’s having lived in Southend near Rochford most of my life, but not about this Liberator.
Next you’ll be researching the fact that Rochford was the only airfield to have had German aircraft land, one in WW1 and the other in WW2.
Then it’s on with the Meteor crash in Westcliff?
What else?
Icare9It looks a genuine airframe, but the context seems wrong.
Look at the background.
There seems to be a road surface or top of a mound that the aircraft is on.
You can see a line of small trees leading away to what looks to be a sea wall. On the top are at least one round ball. Is that a ship or two out further?
Then there is a headland or mound.
It just doesn’t look as if an aircraft could belly land and arrive where it is from the surrounding terrain.
It would have had to have cleared the sea wall, crashed in the field and still have had sufficient momentum to breast the mound, without losing structural integrity but still lose its fin…..
If it didn’t have something in the cockpit, then I doubt much thought would go into it.
We know the model of Me109, who can identify the unit markings?
I can’t make up my mind. I think the aircraft is genuine, but photoshopped onto a different background, but why the “body” in the cockpit? That looks like a model, which makes the entire thing faked.
Icare9kev35 and all:
Absolutely agree about the power of the internet to cross land boundaries and unite people in ways that our fathers would not understand.
As an example, there is another thread elsewhere where former adversaries have united in piecing together the vents of a night when a Lancaster was shot down.
I stumbled across it some weeks ago but never sat to read through until this week (partly as kev35 said his computer was playing up so not heard from till today!!)
http://www.ww2f.com/honor-service-valor/13492-lancaster-bomber-514-squadron-29.html
Puts into context that many people in occupied Countries risked all to help get aircrew safely home. There must have been thousands helped this way and often at a high price.
Today, this continues in many places with people tending graves of aircrew shot down near to them.
My thanks to all who helped us when we needed it. We DO remember them.
Icare9yes, great time, great place. At least we seem to agree on who the other crew member is. The points noted on uniform and badges I’m in agreement with, just that Wilson Finales uniform looked strange, probably Free French, but why not the same for Dominique?
As you identified which was Sergeant Chef Finale, presumably you know wh the rest of he crew are too, but there are 8, 3 look to be carrying extra bags apart from parachute pack, so pilot, navigator and?? 2nd pilot?? Would a W/Op or bomb aimer need extra bags? Maybe some special radio or radar kit? The two at the back look taller than I’d expect gunners to be, in order to fit comfortably into the fairly confined space of a turret.
I assume that the two at each end to be part of their ground crew.
One other point, I’ve not noticed that aerial running from the wireless operators position on other Halifax’s, has anyone else? Does it signify some special equipment?
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