Icare9OK, uneducated guesses from me.
It’s a substantial home, probably late Victorian or Edwardian by brickwork style, unfortunately very common, I’ve seen many with that sort of yellow/green chequerboard conservatory glass and balcony railings. Presumably the civilian (reserved occupation?) and child are the family living there. Perhaps billets? no blast taping on the window glass, so unlikely to be an urban location.
Both the airmen look remarkably similar, if I didn’t know better I’d suggest brothers. They seem to have a non RAF uniform (no breast pockets) and they must have tucked their forage caps into trouser waistband behind them, rather than through the epaulette which was more typical. They both seem to have similar cloth (unit?) patch. The other crewman seems to have different lapels to Dominique, could that be a French uniform? Is there another cloth insignia on his right sleeve, between cuff and elbow? If so, what insignia would be worn there?
Assuming Dominique is the 3rd from the right under the bomb bay door, then the other chap could be the one third from the left, as he seems a similar height.
Over to experts now!!!
Icare9As the rockets don’t appear to have warheads fitted, my take is that this is an test base to check out how accurate etc the rockets are. That may help (or hinder) but it has a “Duxford” look about it, although I know of no good reason for a Boston to be there! Although you can see the edges of the wing roundels, I can’t see any squadron codes on the fuselage, nor a roundel for that matter!
I’ll leave it to experts to work out what possible bases it could be.
Icare9Excellent and enjoyable programme which had more content than many other “entertainment” programmes full of airhead nobodies or people making fools of themselves.
The impressive thing was actually to realise that the current generation of kids can actually DO more than lie about grunting and being moody, always using their mobile or on the computer. Once they got involved, then it simply seemed they realised there COULD be fun in working together and I hope they all had a sense of pride with the finished result.
Well done too, to Gate Guardians who could simply have rejected the whole idea as impractical as proposed (which it was). To see that they had envisaged the flimsiness of the design and had reinforcing steel to hand is a credit. The sprues idea was brilliant, making it seem like a model kit. (Honey, I expanded the Spitfire!).
If it starts to bring parents and kids together in making something in concert, that is the start of the road back to decent family life. I did think that cattle prods was the only way to get kids to behave, now I realise that both sides need to interact.
Now, I hope Airfix can do something more to ensure that this interest is focussed and use today’s technology. A website link showing construction tips and also hints for alternative versions, paint schemes etc might be the way to get them interested in the detail which is just as important as the overall result.
That might make them stand out as ideal employees when the time to find a job comes along.
Icare9Having thrown my two pence worth of “comment” in, I feel that it is of no real assistance to ascertain bomb non release statistics. Even if only happened the one single time, that was one time too many for the Venot crew. i just introduced it as I had the issue of electrical short circuits on the Snaith incident thread and it seemed to be worth mentioning as a possible cause.
As regards Dominique Biaggi’s story before he got to England, do we know whether or not his brother or other family mentioning that he was either in the French Air Force before 1940 surrender, in the Vichy forces until full Occupation or the Free French Air Force on North Africa? At some time he managed to leave mainland France and reach North Africa and then to England. Was he an existing serviceman or an untrained volunteer?
It just seems (to me) that he must have had some basic training or ability to become an aircrew member, apart from being small enough to squeeze into the rear turret. Why choose the Air Force rather than the French Navy or Army?
It also seems that the Commanding Officer is more likely to fly with an experienced crew than with novices if he stood any chance of returning unharmed!! Again that indicates an above average level of skill and ability.
So my feeling is that Dominique (at some stage prior to reaching England) had some understanding of being an aircraft crew. That means tracing him through French archive records, something I feel Sandra can best find help for in France.
As for which Squadron, well the LeO 451 aircraft seemed to have been used in Syria and Lebanon, not sure what was elsewhere as it was quite a confused time, with Vichy aircraft operating under German terms, Free French aircraft outside mainland “Metropolitan” France and French crewed RAF Squadrons….
For now, unless I find something worth adding, I’m baling out as this is way beyond my limits!! Good luck!! Bonne chance!!
Icare9Mysinda: Merci beaucoup! I’ve only come to this late, and not simply to ensure I get a comment on the thread, but to hopefully add some information which could explain the bomb hang up.
Whilst I appreciate that this is a side issue, I felt it worth drawing attention to. Kev35 has done more research about the Squadron records for hang ups, but it then needs to be cross referenced to other Halifax Squadrons, as I don’t recall in my limited experience, reading of so many hang ups elsewhere. That may answer whether there was a quality control problem with bomb releases or if there was some incorrect loading procedure.
I too, have tried to find French Air Force records for Squadron (Escadrille?) I/II, but unsuccessful so far. What little I have found seems to indicate that it was a fighter squadron.
Does anyone else know what aircraft they flew and any records for 1939/1940 that may help locate any helpful information?
Icare9Don’t we all????? Preferably female, of course!!!
Icare9jettisoning: Thanks for catching that typo, my contact hasn’t got a scanner and typed it out in full himself, not bad for 87! It makes the remark “….MH-H, DT 724, a fairly new aircraft,….” even more significant as the batch started with DT720. So both DT722 and DT724 were “fairly new aircraft, hence the sudden appearance of the problem introducing these American manufactured parts.
I’m now off to the Biaggi thread to check on the serial there in case there is a relationship with faulty bomb releases!
Icare9kev35: At the risk of maybe sending the thread in an offbeat direction, I was a little puzzled by the number of bomb hang ups reported for this Squadron. it seemed to occur at about the time they switched from Halifax Mk III (Merlin engined but with Dowty undercarriage, thus limiting the total weight of bombs) to the Halifax Mk V. (Centaurus radial engines).
I have been made aware by a contact who flew for 51 Sqn of an incident at Snaith that may have some connection with the bomb release mechanism being faulty.
In Chapter 10, p.163 of “Snaith Days”. under the heading “Bug in Bomb Selector”.
On the 13th. Feb. 1943 the aircraft were bombed up ready for an op against Lorient and over on B flight the crew were standing around their aircraft having a last minute chat. The Bomb Aimer of Sgt. Rawcliffe’s crew told his skipper that he was going to make a last minute check of the bomb circuitry and nipped into their aircraft, DH722, MH-M. After his checks he came out and stood with his crew who were talking with the crew of MH-V parked on the next dispersal. At approximately 1730 hrs. blue smoke was observed coming from the bomb bay, The Bomb Aimer re-entered the aircraft to rescue the two pigeons and shouted to everyone to take cover since an explosion was likely as the fire was in the bomb bay. There were a couple of “erks” working on the wings of the aircraft who, realising the danger they were in, took running jumps off the wings at about ten feet off the ground and fled for cover. The aircrews decided that discretion was the better part of valour, headed for a nearby wooded area and lay flat upon the grass.
Flying Control, were alerted and a convoy consisting of the C.O. W/C “Tom” Sawyer in his Hillman car, the Fire Crash Tender and an Ambulance sped across the airfield. At the dispersal, the C.O. realised that the fire was uncontainable and gave instructions to abandon the aircraft. The fire raged on and an explosion occurred. The burnt out aircraft eventually collapsed in the middle. At approx 1800 hrs. a similar incident occurred on the other side of the airfield on “A” Flight. The C.O. ordered the convoy to drive over to “A” Flight but the Fire Tender crew were unable to start their vehicle !
Over on “A” Flight, the Bomb Aimer had checked his equipment on MH-H, DT 724, a fairly new aircraft, captained by P/O Rawlings which was standing on the dispersal with it’s bomb doors open. Then, on connecting up the batteries, suddenly a bunch of incendiaries fell upon the hard standing, Being nose heavy they fell so that the nose hit the ground and ignited immediately. At first the Armourers tried to kick them out of the way but had to stop because they contained a percentage of X type explosive incendiaries. Appreciating the danger of the situation, Cpl. Simms, the Armourer in charge of the team warned everyone to evacuate the dispersal. They all ran about 60 yards and threw themselves into the nearest dugout. The bomb load was 3×1,000lb HE’s plus loads of incendiaries and one of the HE bombs went off scattering the remainder of the load onto the airfield. The 5 armourers hid in the dug out, peering out at the burning aircraft until the bomb exploded and one of them, R. Carter, reported that his ears “rang” for a considerable period afterwards. The aircraft continued to burn eventually collapsing in the middle. A tail unit from the bomb went through the roof onto an unoccupied bunk in one of the barrack huts and a large hole was blasted into the dispersal. The Squadrons operations were cancelled for the night.
The Sqdn. Electrical Engineering Officer was obviously very concerned about these mishaps and instructed his Section to carry out a full investigation. The aircraft concerned were newly arrived on the Sqdn. and were fitted with some American made bomb controls which were found to contain drilling “swarf” produced during the manufacturing process. The effect of this swarf was to produce a short circuit in the Selector Unit so that when set on “Safe” it released the bombs prematurely. All Units on the Bomb Control Panels on new aircraft were examined for the possibility of this “swarf” and no further incidents were recorded. Several Airmen suffered degrees of burns and some were M.I.D. for their bravery.
If the swarf completed the circuit in the Snaith incidents, it may also have blocked the circuits in the release mechanisms on these “new” aircraft in 346 Sqn, hence the bombs failing to be released as intended and still being aboard on landing.
Just my speculation, but maybe others can cast a more expert opinion?
Icare9Ahem….. I have a contact who was flying from Snaith shortly after the bomb dump explosion. I contacted him to see if he knew what the MiD was for. This is his reply..
Kevin, I was scanning through the book that I mentioned and came upon a much more significant incident. It is in Chapter 10, p.163 of “Snaith Days”. under the heading “Bug in Bomb Selector”. On the 13th. Feb. 1943 the aircraft were bombed up ready for an op against Lorient and over on B flight the crew were standing around their aircraft having a last minute chat. The Bomb Aimer of Sgt. Rawcliffe’s crew told his skipper that he was going to make a last minute check of the bomb circuitry and nipped into their aircraft, DH722, MH-M. After his checks he came out and stood with his crew who were talking with the crew of MH-V parked on the next dispersal. At approximately 1730 hrs. blue smoke was observed coming from the bomb bay, The Bomb Aimer re-entered the aircraft to rescue the two pigeons and shouted to everyone to take cover since an explosion was likely as the fire was in the bomb bay. There were a couple of “erks” working on the wings of the aircraft who realising the danger they were in, took running jumps off the wings at about ten feet off the ground and fled for cover. The aircrews decided that discretion was the better part of valour, headed for a nearby wooded area and lay flat upon the grass.
Flying Control, were alerted and a convoy consisting of the C.O. W/C “Tom” Sawyer in his Hillman car, the Fire Crash Tender and an Ambulance sped across the airfield. At the dispersal, the C.O. realised that the fire was uncontainable and gave instructions to abandon the aircraft. The fire raged on and an explosion occurred. The burnt out aircraft eventually collapsed in the middle. At approx 1800 hrs. a similar incident occurred on the other side of the airfield on “A” Flight. The C.O. ordered the convoy to drive over to “A” Flight but the Fire Tender crew were unable to start their vehicle !
Over on “A” Flight, the Bomb Aimer had checked his equipment on MH-H, DT 724, a fairly new aircraft, captained by P/O Rawlings which was standing on the dispersal with it’s bomb doors open. Then, on connecting up the batteries, suddenly a bunch of incendiaries fell upon the hard standing, Being nose heavy they fell so that the nose hit the ground and ignited immediately. At first the Armourers tried to kick them out of the way but had to stop because they contained a percentage of X type explosive incendiaries. Appreciating the danger of the situation, Cpl. Simms, the Armourer in charge of the team warned everyone to evacuate the dispersal. They all ran about 60 yards and threw themselves into the nearest dugout. The bomb load was 3×1,000lb HE’s plus loads of incendiaries and one of the HE bombs went off scattering the remainder of the load onto the airfield. The 5 armourers hid in the dug out, peering out at the burning aircraft until the bomb exploded and one of them, R. Carter, reported that his ears “rang” for a considerable period afterwards. The aircraft continued to burn eventually collapsing in the middle. A tail unit from the bomb went through the roof onto an unoccupied bunk in one of the barrack huts and a large hole was blasted into the dispersal. The Squadrons operations were cancelled for the night.
The Sqdn. Electrical Engineering Officer was obviously very concerned about these mishaps and instructed his Section to carry out a full investigation. The aircraft concerned were newly arrived on the Sqdn. and were fitted with some American made bomb controls which were found to contain drilling “swarf” produced during the manufacturing process. The effect of this swarf was to produce a short circuit in the Selector Unit so that when set on “Safe” it released the bombs prematurely. All Units on the Bomb Control Panels on new aircraft were examined for the possibility of this “swarf” and no further incidents were recorded. Several Airmen suffered degrees of burns and some were M.I.D. for their bravery.I feel that the fact that P.O Rawlings was mentioned was the proof that your fposter’s Uncle was present at the dispersal and that this incident…completely unrelated to the later Bomb Dump one was what he was injured in and then M.I.D.
Elementary, my Dear Watson! I suggest that you “post” this intact in the Forum concerned and quote the Book that it came from …
It would seem that these wiring incidents would have been a more likely source for the MiD.
So there you have it….. Snaith Days, available on Amazon and from the 51 Sqn Assocn!! Hope this helps (Thanks, Reg!!)
Icare9kev35: I frequent this and other forums and initially when looking at “New Posts” items I wondered what all this correspondence about an Italian cook was all about, but didn’t resonate with me that it could have been such an absorbing thread! I haven’t anything more to say, except “Thanks” for showing the true worth of a forum can be.
I’ve been trying to do my little bit for the families of the crew of Halifax HR732 lost without trace on the raid to Leipzig 4th December 1943. Usually that means the aircraft crashed into the North Sea or other large body of water. Unusually however, the pilots widow received his wdding ring but no other personal or ID efffects some 3 years after the end of the War. She thinks it came from the USA which makes us think that a US Graves Registration Unit may have come across the ring when exhuming some US crew. From whatever else they found, they were able to correctly return the ring. However no later ID of remains of the pilot F/O A J Salvage or any of the crew occurred. We think the Halifax was hit twice by flak and exploded shortly before dropping its bombs as another 51 Sqn Halifax rear gunner reported seeing that happen. As they took off only a few minutes apart it is possible that what he saw was HR732 as no corresponding fighter claim matches with HR732 and the other aircraft lost that night have been identified apart from one Lanc which usually flew several thousand feet higher.
Had it crashed in Occupied Territory, I’m sure the local populace would have come forward regarding crash sites, but I have no way of knowing how best to access German flak or police records for that night to try and identify potential crash sites. Exploding in mid air would have caused the fragments of the aircraft to land widely separated and may not have had easily identifiable Sqn codes or serial number to aid identification by the authorities. The fact that no crew identification occurred would also indicate some catastrophic event as trapped or baled out crew etc were generally still identifiable.
So we too are stuck until we find a way round the impasse.
I salute you and wish you a successful conclusion to your search. You have done a great job and proved that people can help each other! Well done, mate!
Icare9The only major incident that fits the bill in 1943 was the bomb dump explosion. I seem to recall that I did find something on a web site about it, perhaps a Snaith related site for more details.
Icare9………..and isn’t that the TSR-2 and the Short seaplane jet fighter in the background?
Icare9I’m staggered by the irony of the correct location of the Whitley crash, and that there were/are remnants there, is posted by Me109….
Likewise, the OP is about meeting a man who knew Guy Gibson and his dog.
It then goes pear shaped about involving Stephen Fry and his dogs name. In all probability the name won’t feature at all, perhaps a few shots of a black labrador being fussed by aircrew before departure and then the news that the dams have been breached.
Do we need endless discussion about the PC Brigade, whether or not you can access East Kirby on a Sunday etc etc.
Get back on thread.
I’m sure Moggy can contact Mr Le Marchant and ask him for more memories to post here about his time as a rear gunner…
…. better yet, get him to join the Military Aircrew thread “Gaining a RAF pilots brevet in WW2” on PPRuNe which has a pilot and F/Eng reminiscing on their training and subsequent Ops. life etc….
If he DOES post on here, I would like to think that a bit more respect would be forthcoming for him
Icare9It looks to me to be a very early mark, but 3 blade propeller and non retractable tailwheel. Roundels don’t look to have any yellow outer. For it to have been so stripped, it doesn’t seem to be a UK location, otherwise it would have been recovered. Similarly, I’m sure the Germans would have recovered it, had this been on occupied territory. Also there is a very strange tall telegraph pole, which looks to be too close for the aircraft to have skidded to a halt without hitting it, nearby. Any telegraph pole enthusiasts?
Icare9From the CWGC:
Name: WOODS, ERNEST DOUGLAS
Initials: E D
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Flying Officer (Nav.)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text: 190 Sqdn.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 21/11/1944
Service No: 176742
Additional information: Son of Ernest George and Eliza Woods; husband of Marjorie Evelyn Woods, of Chapeltown, Sheffield.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. Q. Grave 66.
Cemetery: CHAPELTOWN (OR BURNCROSS) CEMETERY
Do you know who paid for this bench? It seems such a nice way to remember someone, there must be a background story worth revealing.
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