Tempest414The Argentine invasion of the Falklands failed on too accounts
1 Poor pre invasion planning
1.1 failure to acquirer the right amount of Exocet missiles
1.2 failure to have any real plan post D Day on how to defend the Islands
1.3 failure to identify key British assets and take them out
2 poorly trained troops
If they had waited until they had all of the kit they had ordered to arrived before jumping off. They had bought the Exocets but failed to wait for them and they were a game winning weapon
On taking the Islands they failed to extend the runway at Stanley to take the Mirages and Super Eds they failed to put good radar in place and failed to have enough high end troop in key places
They failed to engage the Harriers and to knock out a carrier which had they extend the runway and moved in said fast jets and had waited for the Exocet delivery would have been more possible
Tempest414In 2012 the defence budget was ZN$ 3 bn which is 2.4 bn dollars US so here are some options
2016
1 C-130j and 1 C295 MPA cost $120mn
2017 same
2018 same
2019 same
2020 2 C295 MPA $100mn
2021 &22 replace the 757’s
2023 1 Absalon class frigate $250mn
2025 1 Absalon class frigate $250mn
Tempest414Wow.. that’ll teach them somali pirates a lesson, not to mention being a complete waste and drain of money from Argentina.
Here’s another idea, when Argentina is among the top 20 UN contributors, they can start playing with the idea
of taking over USN on the other side of the world, on a sea line they likely never use.
Argentina is the 25th biggest contributor to the UN peace keeping effort and would only have to send another 130 troops some where to brake in to the top 20 as for anti-drug and piracy they don’t need to leave South American waters however the Argentine Navy have conducted operation in the Gulf as part of a UN coalition force
Tempest414Start buying those LPDs and the UK will know there is only one reason you are buying them… and will increase the forces on the FIs, as well as further preparations to stop any invasion force from managing to get even onto the beach.
It really does seem that some posters in this thread believe that the UK will be blind, deaf, and stupid… will not recognize the only realistic reason those ship, aircraft, & missile purchases are being made, and will not maintain even their present watchfulness.
Nearly all the suggested plans rely totally on this completely unrealistic view of the UK posture for their success… and thus show how illogical and impossible success for those plans is.
When you start buying you would need to have a main role defined for each perches. Also the world knows that Argentina needs to modernise its forces and equipment for it UN duties. Yes the UK and the rest of the world will be watching but they also know there is a real need to modernise so.
As said
5 Frigates and 8 Corvettes to replace the 1970’s-80’s fleet for home waters defence and UN duties
3 Makassar class LPD’s to replace the 3 1970’s cargo ships in service and to aid UN – coalition and disaster relief duties and to have one at sea al year round and two as needed
1 Makassar class LPD to be fitted out as a hospital ship and naval aviation training ship
20 medium lift helicopters are a must in this day in age for moving troops and equipment as needed for UN peace keeping and general duties
15 AS565’s are part of the new fleet upgrade and can be used for anti-drug and piracy operations
The buying of 36 Mirage F-1’s for the air force as a stop gap and the movement of the A-4’s to the navy to stand anise on 2 fast jets would be a good move and a latter buy in early 2018 of 16 SU-30’s with and out of services date for the F-1’s set for 2023 with the first ones going in late 2019 would not shock to many people
The buying of 8 to 12 Il-76’s would turn heads but again the need to move men and equipment for world duties and the need for A2A tanking is seen as a must in this day in age
So yes the buying of new kit would turn heads but the Argentines need and should buy new kit for their world duties and home defence I would say that 4 Type 214 submarines would be a good buy when upgrading the Fleet and I used Il-76 in place of KC390 as it is here and now I hope this shows the buying of 4 LPD’s dose not mean one thing only
Tempest414So Argentina is mean’t to just gamble on the fact that there might not be an SSN nearby? As Jonesy pointed out they can buy the equipment but they wont have the skills for ASW.
Let not forget there is six years to lean the skills and also they have the uses of the P-3’s to sweep the area around the fleet and please do not forget this is a few line on a forum and not a detailed battle plan that has had the time and input of a number of services and is just a basic outline
Tempest414The issue of the RN SSNs would need to be dealt with though.
There may or may not be one close enough but that is what the AWS sea kings are for
and no I don’t the British are stupid and LPD’s can be used for a number of roles including hospital ships and UN duties
Tempest414Starting with my list from post 5 which was
2 new landing platform docks
5 new 90 meter Light frigates
8 new 80 meter Corvettes
8 new 40 meter Patrol boats
1 new Replenishment ship
10 new Eurocopter AS565 Helicopters
10 new super puma Helicopters
I would add
2 more Makassar Class LPD’s
10 more super pumas and 5 more AS565’s
I would add 20 more F-1’s from French stocks to 12 F-1m’s from Spain and make sure all F-1’s are Exocet capable move the A-4’s to the Navy
I would buy 16-20 Su-30’s and 12 Il-76’s of which 2 would be tankers
I would have the fleet of 4 LPD’s and all escorts set sail with 15 super pumas 12 AS565’s and the 4 ASW sea kings plus troops and equipment they would run with limited air cover in the early hours when the fleet reach the jump off point the first air strike of 12 SU-30’s and 16 F-1’s would launch with the task of engaging the typhoons and taking out MPA as this strike unfolds the 15 super pumas and 8 As565’s would lift with 250 commandos heading for Stanley airport at the same time 6 Il-76’s loaded with para troops would take off from the main land with the remaining Su-30’s and F-1m’s for cover if all goes well the Il-76’s will land at Stanley if this is not possible they drop the troop into Stanley as the fight is on going the pumas would return to the LPD’s to pick up another 200+ commandos and drop them with a view of splitting the defending troops. As long as the first strike managed to take out MPA and the puma force stays mostly in tact the pumas would keep dropping pockets of troops on the Islands and the A-4 would be on hand for CAS if successful the LPD’s would land the remaining troops and equipment. First job on getting the Island would be the forced repatriation of the Islanders and any forces next extend the runway at Stanley and move in 10 Mirage F-1’s and 6 super pumas and dig in. In this action I would expect a 30% loss of men and equipment
Date of invasion 2019
Tempest414this said if Argentina did take the Islands British SSN could slow down any build up of troop by taking out MPA and Stanly air fields and any docks with tomahawk’s that’s not to say what they could do with the same weapon to main land airfields and ports being used in any build up
Tempest414That’s interesting as an example of how Argentina’s navy might be modernised and I note you did this a while ago but this would not get them any further to taking the Falklands or holding them.
No this was done with their UN duties in mind. However the key is in building up and modernising their forces under a different banner i.e. the needs of the UN and coalition roles.
Tempest414As an exercise in procurement and using the Argentine Navy as a model over 6 years I put this together a few mouths ago
Year 1
1 Fassmer OPV-90 90 meter light frigate multi-role $54 million estimated
2 Fassmer OPV-80 80 meter corvettes multi-role $38 million each known
2 frassmer FPV-40 40 meter patrol boats $8.5 million each known
2 Eurocopter AS565 $18.5 million each known
Also in this year retire the navy fast jet fleet and the Destroyer D-10Light frigates P42 and 43 and patrol boats P-20&21
Year 1 cost $184 million
Year 2 same as year 1 also in year 2 retire the Destroyers D-11 & the 3 Drummond class Corvettes and patrol boats P-85&86
Year 2 cost $184 million
Year 3
1 Fassmer OPV-90 90 meter light frigate multi-role $54 million estimated
1 Makassar Landing platform dock $38 million known
1 Fassmer OPV-80 80 meter corvettes multi-role $38 million each known
2 frassmer FPV-40 40 meter patrol boats $8.5 million each known
2 Eurocopter AS565 $18.5 million each known
Also in this year retire the type 42 B-52 and the Light frigates P-41& 44 and patrol boats P-61&62
Year 3 cost $184 million
Year 4 same as year 3 also retire the Destroyers D-12&13 and the cargo ship Bahía San Blas and patrol
boats P-63&64
Year 4 cost $184 million
Year 5
1 Fassmer OPV-90 90 meter light frigate multi-role $54 million estimated
2 Fassmer OPV-80 80 meter corvettes multi-role $38 million each known
2 Eurocopter AS565 $18.5 million each known
1 new replenishment ship $25 million estimated
Year 5 cost $172 million
Year 6 10 Super Puma Helicopters 15.5 million each
Year 6 cost $155 million
After 6 years the navy will have
2 new landing platform docks
5 new 90 meter Light frigates
8 new 80 meter Corvettes
8 new 40 meter Patrol boats
1 new Replenishment ship
10 new Eurocopter AS565 Helicopters
10 new super puma Helicopters
At a cost of 1.063 billion dollars or 1/30th of the defence budget if it was 5 billion dollars a year over the 6 years plus the Fassmer OPV-80/90 and the FPV-40 could and should be built in the countries dock yards meaning jobs for the country
Tempest414Indeed, in effect the QE class is the replacement for HMS Ocean. I am more interested in two thorny RFA replacement issues, the replacement of RFA Argus and Diligence.
In respect of Argus I think a variant of the Enforcer design without the flood-able well deck but retaining the large helicopter deck. An internal vehicle hanger that can be be used for different roles and the capacity to carry equipment and troops. Like the new tankers it should be built in South Korea with final fit out in the UK.
In respect of Diligence drop all these silly barge ideas and purchase a vessel similar to the current one, in other words an Oil industry support design adapted to navy needs. Again build in South Korea and fit out in the UK.
The Makassar Class would do the job as a replacement for Argus as said remove the well deck and possibly replace it with a hangar deck there is also the room for the hospital equipment to be fitted plus keep the two vehicle hangars the first two were built in South Korea for $38mn each they would cost more to fit out to a UK speck but it could be a place to start
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as for Diligence I think you are right on the money a like for like replacement is needed here
Tempest414The Royal Navy is at this time is down on fighting power however as it moves in to the future it has the potential become a well balanced medium force with good force projection in the form of.
7 Astute class SSN’s
4 Vanguard class SSBN’s
2 QE2 class carriers
1 Ocean class LPH ( I would like to see a replacement by 2022 able to operate 6-8 F-35Bs as well as the 18 helicopters if needed )
6 Type 45 air defence Destroyers
13 Type 26 Multi-role Frigates (I would like to see 16 if the cost could be kept down)
It is hoped that there will be 16-20 90m MHPC’s
The Albion class LPD’s
The Royal Fleet Auxiliary has or will have
3 Bay class LSD’s
1 Argus class Helicopter training ship (Medical ship)I would also like to see a replacement for this ship by 2020
4 Tide class tankers
2 Wave class tankers
3 fort class replenishment ships
And up to 6 Point class sealifts
As said this adds up to good force projection and useful coalition tools if needed so I think the UK has not done to bad they may have been able to do it cheaper but as for what and is being bought ship wise if we build the 16 to 20 MHPC’s it will work well
Tempest414So is the Black swan class sloop a real concept because if it is the only thing that need changing is the 30mm for 40mm or above main gun and at £65mn each a little over priced but close
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Tempest414The UK is no China Russia or US but it does and will have real fighting capability that none of the big three will take lightly but what the UK needs right now is 16 to 20 MHPC’s to take the work load off the Type 45’s and 23’s as when the carriers come on line the 45’s will be needed to defend them 2 per carrier
Tempest414I will take that as a no then
but as MHPC’s are to be multi-role they do need to be flexible
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