Tempest414would it be possible or even cost effective to fit over hauled 996 radars to any new MHPC class hull as they are replaced in the rest of the fleet by the 997 we should have 18 to 20 of them
Tempest414German – Denmark – The Netherlands- Norway
As for HMS Ocean you are right it should be gone by 2025 but it might not be if tasks change
And the point of the post is that as individual navy’s they have some punch but as a European battle group they have a lot more punch and can make a differ ants in high end combat
Tempest414Ok lets set a date of 2025 a major conflict starts in the South China sea the US Pacific fleet is heavily engaged and requests European involvement what could they send ?
Royal Navy at this time has
2 Carriers each capable of carrying a 40+ air wing
1 Ocean class LPH capable of carrying 18+ Helicopters
2 Albion Class landing docks
6 Type 45 Destroyers
6 Type 26 Frigates
7 Type 23 Frigates
7 Astute Class Fleet Submarines
4 SSBN’s
16 MHPC’s
The French Navy has
1 Carrier able to carry up to 40 aircraft
3 Mistral-class LHD’s able to carry 16 heavy or 35 light helicopters
1 Foudre class LHD
12 Frigates
11 Light Frigates
6 Fleet Submarines
4 SSBN’s
12 Sloops
The Italian Navy
1 carrier
3 LHD’s
2 Destroyers
10 Frigates
4 Attack Submarines
10 small ships
The Spanish Navy
1 LHP
2 LPD’s
8 frigates
6 OPV’s
4 attack submarines
10 small ships
Other European Navy’s
2 LPD’s
26 Frigates
4 destroyers
5 Corvettes
14 diesel submarines
So in total Europe would have 4 Carrier’s 8 helicopter carriers 12 Destroyers 86 Frigates 7 landing docks 8 SSBN’s 13 fleet submarines 22 diesel attack submarines plus 150 minor ships and 60 + replenishment ships
But and it is a big one could Europe get its act together and should they start building more compatible ships
Tempest414I have to say the 3 design’s I like at the moment are
STX PV85
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Fassmer OPV-90
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and this one
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I think most agree that as minimum the new ship will need is a 997 set BAE Mk4 40mm and 2 DS30M’s it should be 90m’s have a mission deck and a helicopter pad and hangar have a top speed of 20+ knots and be able to keep up 18 knots task force speed as to stay with the fleet and be able role change as needed so this means a ships crew and a mission crew and needs to cost no more than £55mn each
So for me if this means the hulls need to be built some where out side the UK and the systems fitted out in the UK to keep the cost down then so be it
Tempest414With the new offer on the table of 6 Mirage F-1M’s ready for delivery now and 8 F-1M’s to follow and 8 more for spares plus the simulator it seems that Argentina is ready to move and has pick the first 8 pilots plus a number of ground staff for training in Spain
Tempest414I think this layout without the Camm’s system is were most western navy’s and the RN should head 20 to 30 of these 90m ships with a standard weapons fit of 1 76mm OTO and 2 DS30M’s and 3 StanFlex slots configured for the task in hand
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Tempest414I have to say I like the look of this ship remove the CAMM missiles and the StanFlex system but leave the space where the StanFlex goes for future upgrade and it looks a good design the rest of the armament is in line with the tasks
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Tempest414thats what it is
Tempest414when looking up the navy’s MHPC I came across this
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The plan is it could be operated by a 40 man ship management crew and home a 40 to 50 man mission crew with the possibility of buy the off the shelf Stanflex system with a price of 90 to 110 million pounds per ship and I have to say this is what I had in mind when I said a Multi-mission Corrvette
Tempest414Thank you gents you do put forward a very good case. But the one thing I don’t think we can get away from is the navy needs Hulls in the water. When we look at what we will have if its not cut even more its not a enough at this time the Type 23’s are costing £25mn year to run around £350mn for the class which include maintenance, safety certification, military upgrades, manpower, inventory, satellite communication, fuel costs and depreciation. We also know that the type 23’s cost 10.5mn a year to run in the early 2000’s so by taking an average of 18mn a year across 25 years of service plus the cost of the 13 ships of the class @ £100mn it has cost the UK 7.2 billion pounds for the Type 23 frigates
So lets take a look at this from a different view lets take the Khareef class as it is a British design and lets fit it with the Type 997 Artisan 3D radar as this will fitted to the Type 23/26 frigates the QE2, Ocean, Albion Classes of ship of the Royal Navy we will keep the 76mm*Oto Melara*Cannon and the 2 30mm DS30M’s also we will keep the wire ring and the space for the 12 x*MBDA*VL Mica*SAM but not fit them at this time we will remove the Exocet system and let the Lynx wildcat take on the surface attack role and the contract for the 8 ship would be £110mn per ship plus £14mn per year over 25 years of service would work out to be 3.7 billion pounds which include maintenance, safety certification, military upgrades, manpower, inventory, satellite communication, fuel costs and depreciation.
And we will pay for them by not giving the government its 11% pay rise that should cover the cost
Tempest414We know the Khareef Class cost 400million for 3 ships call it 135 million each but what do you expect when you take a all new design and weapons fit and only build 3 of them if you build 8 or 10 of them the cost should starts to come down.
The Khareef class are a good looking ship however I feel the Fassmer 90 is a much more flexible design with its heli pad and rescue deck layout also the OPV 90 has much of the 80’s design as said Fassmer 80 costs $38mn I just feel if you can’t build the 90 for £60mn which works out to be $90mn its a poor show
As for removing budget from the Type 26 program that just cant be allowed to happen 13 is the least the Navy needs and more like 16 is where it should be this new project would have to stand alone 8 new corvettes on a fixed budget and if only seven can be built for the money then any money left goes back to the treasury
Tempest414I Would agree that if all you want to do is anti- piracy and stop smugglers then a up rated River Class will do the job however what I feel the UK needs at this time is a more powerful multi-role corvette class of ship with good armament
At this time we have 1 Billion pound Type 45’s doing anti- piracy work in 2015 we should start to see work on the new Type 26 with a cost of 250-350 million pounds each but by the time they enter service more like 350- 450 million each so even if the new corvettes were to cost 60-100 million pounds they would be a good buy
The reason for starting with the Fassmer OPV-90 is its design it has a large helicopter pad and hangar it has a very useful large rescue deck which can take 2 or more multi use containers is designed to take a naval gun with the ships magazine two deck below the gun housing as said remove the too forward boat houses and fit VLS
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Makassar Class LPD
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Fassmer OPV-90 light frigate
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Fassmer OPV-80
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Fassmer FPV-40
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AS565 and super puma
Tempest414If China was to ease off a little and do a deal with the US to let the ROCAF buy 40 FA-50 from South Korea to replace the M2K’s it would take some of the heat out of the region and as FA-50 is no match for J-10 or J11 they have not lost anything if anything they would be better off but any deal would have to see the M2K’s leave the region
Tempest414As an exercise in procurement and using the Argentine Navy as a model over 6 years I put this together
Year 1
1 Fassmer OPV-90 90 meter light frigate multi-role $54 million estimated
2 Fassmer OPV-80 80 meter corvettes multi-role $38 million each known
2 frassmer FPV-40 40 meter patrol boats $8.5 million each known
2 Eurocopter AS565 $18.5 million each known
Also in this year retire the navy fast jet fleet and the Destroyer D-10Light frigates P42 and 43 and patrol boats P-20&21
Year 1 cost $184 million
Year 2 same as year 1 also in year 2 retire the Destroyers D-11 & the 3 Drummond class Corvettes and patrol boats P-85&86
Year 2 cost $184 million
Year 3
1 Fassmer OPV-90 90 meter light frigate multi-role $54 million estimated
1 Makassar Landing platform dock $38 million known
1 Fassmer OPV-80 80 meter corvettes multi-role $38 million each known
2 frassmer FPV-40 40 meter patrol boats $8.5 million each known
2 Eurocopter AS565 $18.5 million each known
Also in this year retire the type 42 B-52 and the Light frigates P-41& 44 and patrol boats P-61&62
Year 3 cost $184 million
Year 4 same as year 3 also retire the Destroyers D-12&13 and the cargo ship Bahía San Blas and patrol
boats P-63&64
Year 4 cost $184 million
Year 5
1 Fassmer OPV-90 90 meter light frigate multi-role $54 million estimated
2 Fassmer OPV-80 80 meter corvettes multi-role $38 million each known
2 Eurocopter AS565 $18.5 million each known
1 new replenishment ship $25 million estimated
Year 5 cost $172 million
Year 6 10 Super Puma Helicopters 15.5 million each
Year 6 cost $155 million
After 6 years the navy will have
2 new landing platform docks
5 new 90 meter Light frigates
8 new 80 meter Corvettes
8 new 40 meter Patrol boats
1 new Replenishment ship
10 new Eurocopter AS565 Helicopters
10 new super puma Helicopters
At a cost of 1.063 billion dollars or 1/30th of the defence budget if it was 5 billion dollars a year over the 6 years plus the Fassmer OPV-80/90 and the FPV-40 could and should be built in the countries dock yards meaning jobs for the country
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