O.P.why don’t you say that his chaps have just been applying the same tactics their enemies have applying on them for the past 56 years?
hate and revenge are caused by a REASON you know 😡
__________________
18 April 1996, 106 women and children killed, 110 wounded, UN position.
Qana Massacre, ORDERED by Shemon Periz, NOBEL PRIZE WINNER FOR PEACE.
http://www.qana.net/english.htm.
Yeh, there’s all of those Marine Corps units shooting at anything from inside of Mosques. That “It’s a Mosque, we must respect..the religion of peace”, krap, is krap. Does anyone here remember Monte Cassino?
It goes both ways buddy. I know of another Nobel “Peace” prize winner. I won’t bother counting Yasser and companys women and children kills, and crippled old people kills, or just plain old civilian non-combatant kills. We all know he’s the benevolent leader of his people, striving for peace, cash, and french villas, super good dude, dude. It’s pretty interesting that he managed to waste the above innocents, by sending innocents to blow themselves up in their presence. Thats actually an historic achievment.
O.P.Just the sort of answer I expected, really.
“Playing possum” – so lets shoot the prisoner, then leave him for the next patrol to shoot as well…
So when that particular soldier is found guilty of murder (if you have seen the footage then you will understand why – they didn’t shoot the one who was actually moving: it just has to be a murder charge) what will the headlines be? “Innocent Hero Jailed”? Or something about one bad apple tainting the whole orchard?
No, I have obviously not served in an infantry unit – have you? I suppose you shot and killed wounded prisoners all day every day. Bayoneted a few babies before breakfast. Massacred the innocent as long as there were one or two guilty amongst them. Maybe you missed those golden words ‘prisoner’? They might mean nothing to you – but they would if you were there and also not several thousand miles away too: you scared, boy? Prisoners have rights (even those in Guantanamo, if only your stupid justice system could spare the time to stop preening itself with a view to appearing on TV or something) – that used to be something that soldiers were taught: the Royal Marines know that from their time in Northern Ireland; too many propaganda successes followed on from the beating of prisoners taken in to help with enquiries for them not to learn…
Or maybe you are another brave armchair-general, like me.
It is not the killing so much as the sheer ‘couldn’t care less about anybody else’ attitude displayed by the American military. The way they have hamfistedly gone about things smacks of the sort of superiority complex that has totally forgotten the way they were defeated in Vietnam, for example. They are heading for a fall that will shake the nation – or maybe they will just pull out and leave it to their puppet regime, who will fall to extremists and the world will be right back where they started (except for the fact that there will be a whole new cadre of America-haters, all eager to prove that they can do their bit…). A bit like Vietnam.
And I expect you will be screaming for blood the next time a hostage is beheaded, too, even though you and your sort fail to appreciate why…Flood
Cpl, 11H, D co, 1/327th, 101st Airborne (Air Assault) WhoooooWaahhhh MOFO! Yup….Shore have been in the infantry.
No one shoots prisoners. You left a little out of your little original post/edited cut and paste. The soldier involved in the shooting, said “I think he’s playing dead!”, he said it a tad more graphically then that, but you get get the point. What you also left out of the original post was the soldier involved, just returned to his unit after being shot in the face during the same fight, the day before. Hmmmm, lets play Marine for a second, In a big fight, for several days, wounded, returned to unit, walk in a building, see a guy playing possum…Moral of the story, if you’re wounded, and you see marines coming your way, you shout “OH MY GOD, HELP ME, I’M WOUNDED, I’M UNARMED”, make sure your’ hands are in plain view, and don’t make any quick moves,then you’re taken to an aid station, or you can try to possum it out, hoping to get out later, or take a marine with you. You can see the same “Possum” hunts in WW2 footage. Shooting bodies, makes sure they don’t get up and shoot you when you walk past them.
The difference between Northern Ireland and Fallujah, is the mission in Ireland was a policing type of mission, with strict limitations (I feel sorry for the Royal Army and Marine guys who had to go there under those restrictions, it would be like having a big “shoot at me” sign stuck on your back), Fallujah, is a battle, thats it. The paramedics, the fire department, the police negotiator, aren’t there, just you and the bad guys. You could shoot the possums, or go home in a wheelchair. Why do you fire tank rounds at a building with one suspected guy in it with a rifle? It beats the hell out of going home in a wheelchair. Why do you light up the car not slowing down at a checkpoint?,,,,,you got it,,,everyone, all together now, It beats the hell out of going home in a wheelchair.
As far as the possums being prisoners, someone should have told the Marines going in and out of those buildings that, better yet, if you don’t want to get shot by Marines, you shoulda probably bagged ass out of Falluja before they showed up.
O.P.Recently US troops were filmed climbing a wall to apparently shoot a wounded man (they claimed he was a fighter, of course) hiding in an alleyway. That the soldier in the clip was able to almost casually point and shoot would seem to make it clear that the injured man was not exactly defending himself.
Tonight (UK time, anyway) the BBC showed footage from an American cameraman as troops went into a mosque where there were known to be several apparently seriously injured men – all said to be fighters – who had been left behind by another unit the day before. As the camera filmed one of the injured men was seen to be breathing.
So one of the soldiers apparently shot him on the head.
This was too graphic to be shown, obviously, but another wounded man was subsequently shown and he was said to be the only survivor.
ITN showed the same footage but says that there were 5 men and they had already been shot – again – by another unit just before the incident above.This is a public relations catastophe for the American military – but obviously nowhere near as bad as for those men who believed that they had surrendered but were then ‘massacred’ by their captors. Is it any wonder that hostages are killed when all-American kids happily shoot wounded captives?
Obviously this story is all wrong, and those injured men were all suicide bombers: there will always be some who believe the utter bollox put out in defence of sheer stupidity like this, but the rest of the world can – at least – take a moral high ground, shake their heads and mutter about the dumb morons who are making the enemy even more determined.
I am sickened.Flood
You’ve obviously never served in an infantry unit. If you think someone is playing possum, you don’t walk up and ask them “Are you playing possum?”. You shoot them. If seeing people get killed sickens you, stop watching combat footage. Second guessing ground troops on the scene, and having moral outrage,from the safety and security of being a few thousand miles away, is, super brave of you. If you know a better way to do it, write a letter to the Marines, or the Royal Marines, I’m sure they’d like to hear from you.
O.P.perhpas you are right “only ” several hundreds of phalanx are enough BUT the fact remains, that the offense is much more cheaper than the defense.
__________________
I think you missed the point about massing 10k plus missles for an attack, or,for that matter, 10k plus anything.
It won’t happen anyway, no matter what. The Taiwanese, are Chinese, and consider themselves so. This is a disagreement between countrymen. Any kind of military action between the two of them, is detrimental, to say the least, to both of them. Both want reunification, just on their own terms. It’ll happen one of these decades. This conversation is only interesting as a “what if” wargame type of thing. And, I agree with Flood, it probably doesn’t belong here.
O.P.I have to think that the Taiwanese probably have a SOSUS type sensor net all around their islands. They probably know of everything, above, and below the water around their island for 100nm. There wouldn’t be a great need to operate SSN’s in that space. The hostile boat would be detected, and a P-3 or a helicopter would be sent out to dispose of it.
As for overwhelming the island defenses with cheap V-1 type rockets, or tommahawk knock offs, The only defence needed against those are radar guided 20 mm vulcan cannons, or bigger, the same type used on ships. It’s a lot easier to deploy and feed hundreds or even thousands of those, than using a patriot type system to try and shoot every one of them down. Patriot systems are better used against ballistic weapons. If you’re going to use rockets in an overwhelming attack, they should be ballistic. If you have 10k plus scud type ballistic weapons deployed for such an attack, you’re very vulnerable to a counter strike that destroys the bulk of those weapons on the ground.
Taiwan ain’t gonna roll over.
O.P.You need only look at the way the whole California (5th largest economy in the world) energy crisis unfolded to realize how Californians are disenfrenchised, the way Dubya’s big energy supporters, the Ken Lays of Enrons gouged the Californians not only to make enormous profits but also to stick it to the state that did not vote for Dubya.
Ahhhhh, memories, sweet sweet memories, yours seems pretty selective, or skewed, or something. I live in California. I was here during the energy crisis. I was here before it, and I’m here now. Here’s how I remember it. (Oh yea, for memories sake, the entire state is ruled by very very far left liberals). During the “Dot Com” days, no county, city, or state agency, organization,whatever, would let construction begin on any power plant for over ten years, blight on the earth, blocks my view, precious raccoons and possums, ect. 2000 rolls around. Hmmmmm, I’m not sure, but was there a replublican administration nationally? The “Energy” crisis was getting moving along and our Whitehouse (Democrats) decided it was none of their business, leaving Gray Davis (Democrat) to make extremely bad deals with energy companies, to hire (Democratic) consultants at 30 thousand dollars a month to help him out, turned out they were political(democrat) consultants, not energy consultants.
All of the fraud and coruption was done during Democrat tenures of both the California Govenors office and the US Presidency. The current national administration was left holding the bag for 8 years of energy “apathy” ,corruption, stupidness, by democratic administrations.
My memory is selective too. This is how I think I’ll remember those good ole days.
O.P.Sadly, that would exclude Dubya’s hill billy bible belting fantatical right wing extremist, teeth missing y’all, base…..
American is turning into the Taliban-like fanatical theocracy of the West. Dubya’s re-election, which would also pave the way for the election of another Republican rapturist after this term ends, would truly put the icing on the cake vis-a-vis the strenghtening of the Christian fundamentalist stranglehold of all institution and aspects of american society.
With the disenfrenchisement of the more educated, productive, and innovative folks residing in the west coast and the northeast, the driving force behind the economic powerhouse the US has been in the past, would hasten the economic, hence the military demise of the US empire.
I say let the republican and their armageddon-wishing evengelical supporters run their once a great country into ground.
I’m not sure where you’re from Che, But saying this would be like me saying that everyone in England is a bunch of rake toothed, sheep herding, tweed wearin, wierd talkin, yokels, Except the fabulous metropolitain, sophisticated Londoners, who know everything and who’s judgement is impeccable in all circumstances on all subjects….I’m sure the other 90 percent of england will agree with this.
O.P.Cheers MH,
Any idea how long it’ll take to convert?
Circuits (with and without passengers), Straight & Level and W&B. Can anyone think of anything else?
DME
Slow flight and stalls. You’ll probably be done way under five hours. I fly 172’s, newer ones, as a student. The comment about weight is right on, all full of gas, and a 250lb passenger, you’re full.
O.P.I am afraid it would make more sense if we knew of what you speak… H1B? And the names are just names – and unknown at that.
So you think that voting for someone already in power will save your job? Again? With a chance that you will (hopefully not) lose your job in the near future you feel that giving the same people a second chance is the best option? Sounds like turkeys voting for Christmas to me…
Still, not having any raise in tax could mean that the unemployed, the homeless, and the helpless see their help programs cut back or dropped altogether – but thats fine with you because you are employed, you have a home, and you are not sick and needy…at the moment. Hell, why not just cull them – these herds of useless humanity are obviously just dragging the country down! You could even charge the rich to hunt them down, mount their heads on the wall… Nobodys going to miss them – well, nobody important, yeah?;)
And your views on the UN are well displayed, but then the UN is all about being United Nations – going out on a limb because the other United Nations don’t agree with you is a bit short sighted (check all the times that America vetoed UN Motions about Israel, and see how that helped the area), for example. And then there is that thing about America being the biggest subscription defaulter: some nations pay more than others because they are richer; if you think that America should pay the same as Liberia, for example, then you are fooling yourself. “Not paying coz you won’t do as I say!” Why not have another screaming fit! Stamp your feet as well!
Send the debt collectors into the White House I say!:DFlood
Good! Thats the kind of thing I was hoping for. I guess you kinda made my point for me.
Not very many people outside this country knows whats going on inside of it. I do know, raising taxes, will make more unemployed people, that helps no one. Foriegn policy is maybe half of the election. Thats the only part you see. Theres a lot more riding on this than foriegn policy. It’d be my guess that the majority of Americans are more worried about their immediate future and the economy, than foriegn policy.
Thanks for being honest Flood. Thats cool.
O.P.I don’t think anyone is going to change anyone elses mind here. But, here, like most places I’ve looked at, the most vehement posters, cut and paste “insert tyrant here” comparisons, or American’s who don’t agree with me are “insert slur here”, articles. I was hoping that someone here would tell me why it would be so much better if Kerry got elected, in their own words, using their own belief’s, possibly their own experiences, without resorting to Hitler,Brehznev,Okie,Redneck,Fundamentalist,, exagerations, slurs and conspiracy theories. Anything would be cool. I don’t need links, documentation, anything, just one personal belief why you think Kerry would be better. Here I’ll go first…
My views about Iraq and the UN are clear in my previous posts. Here is the other thing about this election that is important to me, and why.
I live in Silicon Valley. Thats in California. Thats in the most liberal part of California, which is one of the most liberal states in the union. Almost every elected state, county, and city official is a democrat. During the Dot Com boom, they raised taxes, started programs and projects that were either forever, or many years in length, they upped the H1B quotas every year.
2000. Everything started going in the tank. Our representatives in their infinite wisdom, lacking revenue for their plans and projects, raised taxes on everything and everyone trying to find a way out. It didn’t work. 59 % of the tech jobs are now gone. A large chunk of the tech employers left the state. And our good buddies, Diane Fienstien and Barbra Boxer, kept raising the H1B quotas every year. Heres a charming coincidence, while our glorious socialist help everyone from cradle to grave rep, Dianne Fienstien was raising H1B quotas, Her husbands company was firing workers, and replacing them with H1B’s. He, and she made hundred of millions of dollars, during this time. 59% of the tech jobs are gone, forever. I just saw a statistic that said 50,000 new tech jobs were created in the quarter, or something like that. Great!………I guess that the 65,000 H1B’s approved on October 1st,2004, will have jobs when they get here. And then theres 9/11……..
Out of all the people I knew working tech jobs in valley on January 1st, 2000, only three are left, me, and two others. My company went through a layoff, a paycut, a layoff, a paycut, a small hiring, a bigger layoff, and a paycut, in the last four years.
The company I work for, and the few hard working employee’s left, after all of this time, have finally put ourselves in the black and the company is starting to make some money. I just got the last paycut returned, yippee! That means I’m only behind 20% from when I started. We’ve even hired a couple of tech jobs back, of course at 30-40% less than what they were making previously.
Not liking the H1B program, doesn’t make me a racist. I also understand that businesses exist to make money, not employ workers. But, our own elected leaders don’t have to spit in my, and every other tech workers face by bringing our replacements to this country to take our jobs, what few of them are left.
John Kerry said he was going to raise taxes. The company I work for is not going to go into the red, or even break even, they will lay off people, and the first to go is tech. If they actually need the skill, they will hire the position back as an H1B wage slave.My company isn’t the only one. That will happen all over the country. I’d guess the economy here will go directly back into the krapper.
I just turned 40. All of the people I work with are younger that me. All of my immediate supervisors are younger than me. I’m not a fool. I know this is the last tech job I will ever have. I know how the IT business works in the valley. I need to keep this job for as long as possible, while I attempt to transition into a new non H1B/exportable career. Raising taxes is going to screw that plan all to hell.
I know I sound selfish, but being poor and unemployed, sucks. In and economicaly depressed America, theres going to be a lot of new poor. Unemployed poor people, don’t give a squirt of **** about Iraq or the rest of the world, all they see is hundreds of billions of dollars going into a war.
I hope the UN is ready for the ole rapido takeover peacekeeping force job, sans Americans, because an America in a depression won’t do any of it for very long……. Oh yea,,,,we all know how good the UN is at peacekeeping.
O.P.I confess to not being sure about these facts and figures – but I do know that the USA is by far the biggest hold-out on UN fees. The point Mr Patterson made above is true – the US is far more interested in its own welfare than that of the the rest of the world. And it’s tempting to say “fair enough” only I don’t think it is fair enough. When you’re that big, when your economy holds so much of the world in it’s sway – some form of noblesse oblige applies.
gnome
I know the US “owes” the U.N. a billion plus dollars. Thats why I said “How about everyone in the U.N. pays the same amount of money to make it run?” I don’t think Libya or hardly any countries on this earth pay billions of dollars over any amount of time to the U.N.. I don’t know all of the reasons the US has for not paying the UN money, I agree with some of them, I disagree with the rest of them.
I am not an isolationist. But I do think the UN becomes more ineffectual every year. It becoming downright counterproductive/stupid dangerous. It’s time that organization goes through a major change.
I agree with you gnome, that the US has a responsibility to the world, at the very least, not make it worse. The same goes for the rest of the world also. It’s time some of the other wealthy countries of the world pull their weight also. In times of crisis, when mass murder is taking place, talking to the animals who’re doing it, and “sanctioning” them, is not a solution, it’s complicity. I’d be more than willing for the US to join the “Talk Club”, and watch millions die, but I don’t like that sick feeling in my stomach, and I like sleeping at night.
O.P.Here are a couple of shots I took in February last year at Tigre, Argentina. Unexpectedly these aircraft hove into view whilst my wife and I were passing on a river boat excursion from Buenos Aires. Needless to say fellow travellers were not too pleased that I insisted that we stop for 10 minutes to record the Argentine Navy Air Museum.
Mark
(for Melv, before you say it: Saga-lout)
Thanks! They’re beatiful! Do you think there’s any chance they’d do a fiberglass replacement kinda deal? 🙂
O.P.Well said Mr Patterson!
I’m honestly starting to feel like an isolationist.
People have a problem with whats going on in Iraq, but they did not have, and do not have another solution. What they forget is that the U.S. was spending 14 to 20 billion dollars a year patrolling a no fly zone for over ten years. How long was that supposed to go on for? I’d like to see the cost breakdown per Allied/U.N. nation.
I got an idea, how about for every U.N. action that involves U.S. troops, equipment, time, we just bill it back to the U.N.? How about if it doesn’t get paid, we don’t go? How about everyone in the U.N. pays the same amount of money to make it run?
I believe the U.N. has become a political tool for dictators and savages to maintain a semblance of being in the world at large. It’s become a place where “First” world slime, can a corrupt a humanitarian deal with a “Third” world slime, at the expense of millions of people (see: oil for food.) How bout ole Jaques kicks back some O that cash….., those cats would never give any approval for any kind of intervention, anywhere, as long as payday was a commin….meanwhile, we still fly those planes, and still have those ships on station…..14 billion dollars, thats more than most european countries spend for defence in a year..
I think isolationism is completely doable, tell the U.N. to get the hell out of New York, bring all of our troops back home, ALL of them, lock up our borders and immigration laws tighter than a ….., do oil trade only with our southern neighbors,Then kick back and watch the bombings and pogroms on cable television. Anyone screws with us,,,welllll I know we can’t lose, we have a ****load of nukes, and a ****load of ways to get them where they belong, and a ****load of ways to preempt launches, and a …….
I am completely for that, except for one big thing, or a couple of million, depends on how you look at it. I take the “Never Again” idea seriously. At this time in history, it’s ridiculous that a pogrom or mass murder would even be contemplated, let alone carried out. So for the sake of Kurds, Shiites, and a half a dozen other ethnic minorities, screw saddam, screw the bathists, and screw Jaques, and screw the U.N..
Speaking of pogroms…..Cambodia(See:Jimmy Carter), Rwanda (See:Bill Clinton)(Oh yea, I’ll chunk in Somalia and Bosnia here too), see where I’m going….O.K. I’ll spell it out, XXXX(See:John Kerry), Real good guys, Lets chat about it, the U.N. will know what to do…….
I think that things are probably going to get worse before they get better, either way the election goes. But leaving Iraq, would be a prelude to leaving damn near everything. We have problems here. If taxes are raised, a lot of people are going to lose their jobs, including me probably. Out of work folks have little care about U.N. problems, or world problems. And our pandering candidate/s will probably grant our wish.
Srpatterson is right, the biggest concern the world should have about this election, is if the U.S. starts to turn isolationist. Be carefull what you wish for, you might just get it.
O.P.Thanks for sharing the pictures! Thats one of my favorite planes. Anyone have somemore?
O.P.I have Tora, Tora Tora on tape. Yes, it is a million miles better, and at least it is very close to the truth, unlike ‘Girl Harbor’.
Dude….I had to wash Pearl Harboor out with a case of beer and repeat viewings of Catch22
Got to go, I am sure the bit where Americans win the Battle of Britain is coming up soon. :rolleyes: 😉
You didn’t know that little history tidbit? The only thing they left out is where Gandalf shot down a bunch of airplanes with a stick, or a ring, or something……
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