Geoff_BAh but its not the end of the world to the UK as the Typhoon is our primary combat aircraft. With the carriers being converted there are still alternative CATOBAR aircraft where as there are no alternative STOVL aircraft available.
BAE Systems won’t be happy as they are tied into the production of the F-35 and might have to fight to retain that if the UK have to look elsewhere for an off the shelf solution.
The trouble is with the US DoD needing to cut its budget we don’t know yet where they are looking to cut and how deep they will go. That DoN document shows just what they were assessing in terms of their Naval Air Warfare, and the same will have gone out to all similar sections of the US Armed Forces.
Pretty sure the F-35 program will survive, but i doubt it will be unscathed be that in cuts in overall numbers, capability or possibly even the culling of one of the special variants its all depends on the level of cuts and what departments are willing to sacrifice to keep what they most need.
I get the feeling its going to get very nasty and unpleasant in the next 12 months so hopefully the F-35 program doesn’t have any more hiccups in that period which would lead to some questioning its viability :confused:
Geoff_B[QUOTE=mrmalaya;1793575]on one level the debate comes down to whether you believe the F35 will be more capable than the Hornet or the Rafale.
[QUOTE]
Actually its if the F-35 will live up to its expectations at a cost thats viable and available when its needed.
Within this SDSR period its not required as Carrier Strike is not due till 2020 which is when the CATOBAR carrier and the F-35 C should be available.
Personally i do think we may see some USN super hornets leased on a short term basis purely to help step up training an intergration of the Carriers and crews as their simply won’t be enough F-35C’s on hand at this time as they too will be working up. However this id for the next SDSR period and other factors by then may influence decisions.
The biggest factor being the F-35C program itself, which has two major hurdles to overcome :-
1. Ensuring the aircraft meets its requirements on time & on budget, as there is alot of development, intergration, testing and of course programming to come in the next 6 years to meet the operational in service dates.:(
2. The US DoD cuts, there scope and severity are yet tio be determined and from the UKs point of view should the USN be forced to cut or worse cut the F-35C program to keep the USMC F-35B then that would cuase a review of the FCA program, but we won’t know that till next year at the earliest.
In the meantime we carry on business as usual until matters change that would warrant a review
Geoff_BI think he plagiarised Geoff B’s words!
BTW there is a colon missing after http in the URL
😮 Thats what i thought when i read it, nice to see our conclusions to be proven to be correct however 😀
(the faulty link is due to the extra http:// left in the add link box when teh web address was pasted their )
Geoff_BI would guess with the study taking approx 18 mths the QE will already be on with final assembly in the Rosyth dry dock and on schedule to be launched in 2014 at which point the dry dock will be made ready to start assembling the blocks for PoW as they can’t really leave them floating in the dock basin whilst QE is reworked.
Thus QE will probably do her sea trials whilst PoW is assembled and launched before the dry dock is then clear again for them to back fit the Cats & Traps to QE should that be decided upon of course !.
Geoff_BThe SDSR pretty much put paid to the slice of the cake back stabbing, the govt laid out its strategy and how it was going to meet these goals whilst all elements of the armed forces had to pay the ferryman as a result as they were all eaually purged in one form or another.
The more you think about it the only reason the MOD appear to be cleaning up behind ministers over converting both carriers and their eventual status is becuase in doing so it would breach the SDSR policy and thus bring into question all other SDSR choices as they are being actioned.
Thats why the Harriers have been mothballed, the Nimrods scrapped and Ships taken out of service to ensure the policy is adherred to despite the obvious short term need for some of these elements as highlighted by the Libyan action. To falter and back track on one would leave the various forces and their MP backers to question the SDSR and attempt to reverse the other decisions, the Treasury would also attempt to cut funding should the MOD be seen to be back tracking.
I doubt we will see any change in official strategy until the rest of the changes outlined in the SDSR have been implemented and past the point of being reversed and they then start to gear up to the 2015 SDSR
Geoff_BHeres a bit more clarity
UK launches carrier conversion studies
The UK’s Aircraft Carrier Alliance (ACA) – comprising BAE Systems, Babcock, Thales and the Ministry of Defence (MoD) – has commenced an incremental 18-month Conversion Development Phase (CDP) to explore options for the adaptation of at least one of its Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers to a ‘cats and traps’ configuration to enable the operation of the F-35C Carrier Variant (CV) of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Seed funding of about GBP5 million (USD8 million) is covering activity through to the end of October, with further contracts to be let in the near future to the ACA and the MoD-led Naval Design Partnering (NDP) team[first posted to http://idr.janes.com – 18 August 2011]
So following the approval of funding they have formally started the conversion study so it looks like next October at the earliest for offical details of what the CATOBAR conversion will be. The wording is now definately at least one conversion so the options remain open.
The way MOD beaurocats are busy cleaning up after various defence dept ministers indicates its not a funding issue thats preventing any official MOD confirmation. I thinks its because the SDSR stated that one carrier would be converted and the other completed and mothballed, so any confirmation that the policy has changed would leave the Govt open to attack on the more controversial SDSR decisions – Capability gaps, base closures & re-rolling, assets decommissioned etc. I doubt the MOD will let anything that contradicts the SDSR to be approved until all the other issues have been completed so they cannot be reversed. Ideally they would like to see nothing changed till the 2015 SDSR, although some elements may be tweaked in 2014 when the would be less hassle and of course be potentional sweeteners in an Election year where certain issues might work against them :(.
Its simple the Tories would be cruicfied by their rank & file if HMS Queen Elizabeth named in honour of the Queen was to be laid up mothballed as a toothless terror. So as its the year that she is launched expect her future to be announced then.
Geoff_BHopefully we get both fully fitted with cats and traps. The official line may be only PoW will get them but all the murmurings by ministers and insiders is that both will be fitted. It would make political sense for them to do it this way for campaigning for the next general election on defence they can say they will fully fit both carriers and that they have successfully pulled out the troops from Afghanistan.
Unofficially it does appear they are aiming to have both converted to cats & traps so one would be a reserve carrier rather than a mothballed one. Everybody bar the MOD appears to be keeping to this line.
I suspect that the official line is tied to the 2010 SDSR and as such they will not change their stance till the 2015 SDSR as once they change the policy away from that laid down in the SDSR then all other SDSR decisions could be open to be challenged. :mad:.
Its annoying although they may well be able to change official policy in a couple of years time as overseas operations wind down and the 2010 SDSR is no longer fresh in peoples minds. But that won’t be possible till the difficult issues have been completed such as the base closures or re-taskings along with the hardware withdrawals and redundencies.
That’s probably why the MOD stepped in so fast with that rebutal of Dr Fox’s statement when they realised what the impliciations would be by just that one little step !
Geoff_BActually i thinks its more a case of buisness as usual until told otherwise. The subcontratcors are tied into doing QE’s upper blocks at the moment, so rather than muck them up they are building to spec and assemble QE as per original plans.
In the meantime they refine the design for PoW parts before production starts on the upper blocks once they know whats required for cats & traps.
The interesting bit will be what QE will be like when she’s handed over as per spec minus ski-jump or modified with the Angled deck extensions and space assigned for Cats & Traps but without the hardware fitted ?
Fedaykin is quite right they could if required modify and fit Cats & traps in QE at Rosyth in the 2014-18 period, and may will instruct then to do so next year :confused:
Geoff_BActually the head of the ACA design team said it as did BAE on one of those UK forces videos, QE will be finished as designed and passed to the RN in 2016.
Like you i found this surprising too as the official line is still 2012 on official decision but i suspect its a case of being too late to modify the sections during manufacture for QE and will be done with PoW.
The unofficial stance does appear to indicate both will eventually get converted but it looks like it could well be at first refit. I suspect they are probably pricing up both sets of Cats & Traps and will use a deal excuse to help justify converting both during next year especially with it being a Jubilee year
Geoff_B14 RAF Chinooks have been ordered
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14616028
Looks like the revised budget sorted out last month has cleared the hurdle for the 14 Chinooks to be finally ordered and will pave the wave for the Merlin HC3 to become Junglies under the Naval control.
The cynic in me is thinking these 14 aircraft won’t be delivered till after the withdrawal from Afghanistan, and therefore rather than take the Chinook numbers up to 60 they will rather enable some of the older hard used aircraft from the late 70’s to be retired and replaced.
Ideally they should have specified the aircraft for naval use with folding blades and salt spray protection so they can operate from the Ocean, CVF and other landing ships rather than being transported as cargo !
Geoff_Blooking forward to seeing her in dock so much,hopefully we might see her with sponsons added etc by the end of year then that will really make her look in proportion,4acres! of flight deck,floating out in 3 years.roll on 2014.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Actually LB03 should be floated out next year to allow LB02 to be loctaed in the assembly dock, but yes should be quite interesting to see QE floated out in 2014 as a complete hull, although i guess POW will take her place in the dock at that point.
G
Geoff_BThe CVF design already has the widened decks over the sponsons to accomodate the Angled deck however there is a stern extention to create the round down at the start of the angled deck and there is another at the fwd end of the port sponson to accomodate the continued width of the angled deck for a safer run off when there is a bolter.
I think these two bits are the ones nocuts is referring too. In answer to that question then yes i hope they do included them on the QE build even if not on the blocks being built by A&P & CL they can be built and fitted by Rosyth on QE and it will be one less job to do as and when she is fitted with acts & traps.
Geoff_BAlso hedges the bets in the event of the F-35 program falling foul of the expected DoD major cuts should the US fail to sort out its Budget woes by not being completely tied to the F-35A until it can be revived next year.
The advantage is they can watch events unfold over the next 6-12 month to review the situation, their plans and then determine the best course of action
Geoff_BThanks 90inFirst for the link.
Geoff_B is this the link for your source, as the video 90inFirst linked does not mention the difference between the QE and PoW?
http://bfbs.com/news/scotland/mid-section-royal-navy-aircraft-carrier-move-50688.html, while the text below the video says both will be modified, the video is clear that this is not case?
Yeap thats the one, but its definately a grey area of policy at the moment within the MOD, the official line is one will be mothballed as indicated by the SDSR, but talk and notes mention converting both ships and the report did mention that QE would have to be modified after completion.
I suspect we’ll find final confirmation of what they will actually do when the ship is either formally launched or next year when they get to order the Cats & Traps as they are not going to leave themselves open to abuse when the ship is named (probably by the Queen) for the ship it to be still earmarked for mothballing !
Geoff_BBack on Topic, with that UK Forces video on Youtube about the building of the CVF with LB03 about to set sail we got confirmation from BAE Systems and the ACA team that Prince of Wales will get built with the CATOBAR equipment and Queen Elizabeth will be launched as designed (minus ski-jump) and handed over to the Royal Navy in 2016.
No doubt to do first of class trials to iron out the kinks so any defects identified in the design can be applied to Prince of Wales whilst its still being completed.
A bit naughty that it slipped out on an TV interview when the official confirmation is not expected till next year !
As to what happens to QE when PoW enters service remains to be seen, officially it mothballing, but the underlying tone appears to be reserve & CATOBAR refit and then the always operation or refit/reserve as used by the CVS & LPD fleet.
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