I think you have to consider the source……:(
I think you might need to consider learning to read between the lines and extract what is the truth from all the LM spin doctoring and the nay sayers as its in there somewhere and it ain’t as rosey as you like to make out.
Think about it, Sweetman wrote a very nice book on the JSF program in its early days, whats happened to make him change his mind and loose faith in the program ?
Theres been a couple of interesting bits in Flight this week.
First the USAF are admiting that the restructure by Gates will have a knock on effect to the in-service date for the F-35A and the question is now how much is spent to upgrade F-16s as an interim measure.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/13/351805/slip-for-f-35a-entry-into-service-implied-in-latest.html
Only question with this is with the F-35B being put to the back of the queue the F-35A steps upto the front as 53 of the B production in the next 5 years have been assigned to A’s. Therefore won’t that mean the the F-35A will actually find its flight testing and operational development accelerated and the greater numbers available earlier should improve it introduction into service ?.
And another on the F-35B woes, LM saying the change in material is not the cause but rather the stresses by this being the undercarriage attachment point.
There is another on the engine issues as P&W say the parts met LMs specs it provided but flight testing found the conditions exceeded expected tolerance parameters and the parts would need to accomodate this !
Despite the LM spin its not a good sign that they managed to get these aspects wrong, when they first came to light LM was publically blamming the suppliers but it looks as if they didn’t provide suitable specifications along with accurate tolerences.
One good sign is that they appear to have got BF-02 in the STOVL flight testing, i did wonder at the wisdom of using BF-01 for the role as it was the first actual F-35 produced as the first aircraft was made to the original heavier design.
the problem i have with this thread is that it started with a story by an ageing naval aviator ( who is no longer in the loop, to the extent that he ever was) who starts from the premise that any decision made by the MOD is a pile of pants.
Its allowed everybody to promote their own aircraft, denigrate the UK armed forces or carry on arguments from other threads but i don’t see the point.
The UK aren’t buying SH, they don’t think its better than what they operate, and that should be the end of it no?
Well i think he’s a better understanding of the situation and capability than you do. Sharkies argument is quite sound unlike the risk the current government is taking.
Currently we are scrapping the VTOL harriers and their carriers, holding the Tornado to cover Afghanistan till 2015 withdrawal, and praying nothing else occurs whic requires our action until the F-35C’s get intio service at the end of the decade (hopefully) If not then the Tornado and maybe Typhoon would be used as longer as the conflict zone is within easy reach of friendly aircase we can operate from and reach with overflight agreements.
All Sharky is suggesting is that the Carriers are only really being held back so long to await the F-35C they could probably be completed and reasdy by 2016-17 at the earliest. A procurement of Super Hornets would give us carrier capable aircraft and crew capable of being deployed on either our own carriers or somebody elses. Gates has already earmarked another 41 for the USN to cover the delays in the F-35C program so it could well be the next decade before we receive and get into service enough F-35C’s to be deployable !.
They probably would seeing as how they (apparently) havent even considered any other possibility.
I suspect they may well start thinking about it a little more seriously now, even if not ‘Officially’
We profit from the F35 though, theres no way we will get the same benefit from a Rafale procurement, = massive UK job losses. As for the French screwing us over, oh yes they will, they aren’t really going to lose out by doing so.
France won’t actively use that as a marketing trick due to the co-operation agreement, however Dassault would at every oppertunity :diablo:
Gates has little say in the matter…………..Regardless, like I have said over and over the F-35B will not be cancelled or at very least the odds are way against it.
No he has already said it that give the next guy the option, thats the crucial point plus an ultimatum !.
If the factor was just cost then the USMC could probably swing things in their favour by sacrificing manpower to keep this capability, however its very much harder to secure support if the Aircraft fails to deliver whats required, no matter how strong the USMC want it the government is not going to continue backing a looser especially an expensive looser.
Don’t forget Gates also mentioned that there are serious unreported problems with the F-35B that may require redesign to the airframe and engine. the issues such as doors and the bulkhead have been reported so there is more bad news that we don’t know about !
G
USS America becomes something of a turkey then.
Not really as whilst its Aviation centric is really optimised to carry rotary wing aircraft so its really just an LPH in the same pattern as the Iwo Jima class, if they wanted a STOVL carrier then the these ships would probably have come out something like a CVF design, with a dedicated runway area ending in a Ski jump a VTOL take of and landing area plus a decent deck park.
Without its F-35B’s it just leave more room for Ospreys and probably more Sea Cobras.
Wonder if they can cross a Bronco with an Osprey for a Tilt Rotor COIN aircraft ?
Back on Topic, Sharky may not be far off the mark, as Gates has just indicated another 41 Super Hornets for the USN as an interim for the F-35C delays. Give it a couple of years and the UK govt may do something similar if the F-35C see’s any further slippage in deliveries.
Flight have a bit more on the Gates stay of execution on the F-35B and indicates that additional F-18s will be ordered as an interim option to replace the F-35B’s that wont be entering service when they should and upto 150 F/A-18C/Ds will be refurbished.
I suspect the UK had a heads up on this from the US administration and therefore decided to switch horses to the F-35C !
At least we get to see that the mandate for this thread is indeed valid and what the US are looking at as an interim replacement.
The RN in the mid to late 60s had for the most part only one of the Audatious class Eagle and Ark Royal available and Hermes and Victorious. Having one of the carriers on Yankee station nearly 24/7 365 would have put a major strain on the RN, Centaur had been used as an accomodation ship for too long I would have thought to have been used as a strike carrier.
The Beira Patrol would I dont think have been possible with a carrier if one was on Yankee Station.
All this is said before we consider what aircraft would be used, most probably only Bucaneers, the UK Phantoms were delivered in the late 60’s and only Ark Royal after her refit that finished in 70 could launch them.
This is without thinking of fleet train issues, that there were with the British Pacific Fleet at the end of WW2.
Remember that in the Korean war only Colossus Class carriers and HMS Unicorn went, none of the fleet carriers were deployed.
Overall I dont think that the RN could have supported a carrier on Yankee Station.
Centaur sevred until 1966 and then acted as an accomodation ship whilst Ark Royal was refurbished, upto that point she still had an airgroup of Sea Vixens and Gannets (but no Buccaneers).
Eagle was the trials carrier for F-4K Phantom and only required the JBD’s to be fiited with the spray devices to enable full Phantom operations along with modifications to the stores for Phantom parts. Her Phantoms were actually on order and were due to be the 2nd frontline FAA squadron before the aircraft were re-assigned to the RAF with the culling of the carrier force.
Your forgetting the Pacific fleet was supported from Ceylon & Australia in WW2, for Vietnam the Royal Navy had its fleet base in Singapore and the RFA would have been able to support them.
Should the UK have been actively involved in Vietnam then the like of Phantom would have been brought into service sooner, and the use of Carrier groups would have probably secured the case to continue with CVA-01, in which case Ark Royal would probably have only had a normal refit.
With the likes of Hermes, Victorious and Ark Royal all unsuitable for Phantom operations at the time it is possible the Crusader would be seen as a more suitable interceptor for dealing with Migs. We might have also seen the Skyhawk as a smaller lighter alternative to Buccaneer and more suitable for our light fleet carriers.
Other operations such as the Beira Patrol would have been likely allocted to the smaller carriers such as Centaur and Hermes or other warships.
I rather doubt there could be a continous operation but rather a RN fleet carrier would rotate with the USN Essex class to provide air support. Of course there are many other factors about suppling carrier support, no doubt there would have been pressure for land forces too, along with airlift from the RAF.
To be honest with our other commitments i rather doubt the UK would have got directly involved, but i suspect the US would have like us to cover some of their interests whilst they focused on Vietnam rather than pulling back East of Suez
Well the Buccaneers would have seen active service and no doubt Eagle would have been refitted with Phantoms. We may have seen Crusaders bought to replace Sea Vixens for use on Hermes, Victorious & Ark Royal with maybe even Centaur continuing as a strike carrier.
CVA-01 probably would have continued, and the RN would probably have been the driving force behind the AFVG program rather than the RAF although both of these would not be ready till the mid 70s at the earliest !.
The real cancellation, until now, has already happened, with the UK suddenly dropping the B to move to the C version.
I’m still wondering if, perhaps, the UK’s MoD officials got off the records some confidential hint from either LM or the USA’s DoD, prompting them to make the shift.
I have a feeling they asked for cast iron gurantees on the F-35B for the US administration and found some element of doubt, enough to warrant a change in format.
Going with the C at least offers alternative should that element of the program hit trouble, and i would guess that part of the reason for the switch as the B was a one horse race and if it stumbled at a jump that would be the end of carrier strike program.
Back on topic, would the soviets look at revamping the Vak-141 into its Yak-43 format and possibly work with an overseas company to develop an alternative Harrier replacement should the F-35B fall under the axe ?.
Nothing is free. The big wings and tails and additional weight (needed to recover the C on the CVN) come at the price of increased drag.
Go listen to the youtube interviews with Jon Beasley. When he speaks of performance similar to a clean Block 52, he is speaking of the A, not the C.
The current “party line” at LM is to state that all three versions will meet their specifications. But once all three versions have achieved IOC and are in full rate production, don’t be surprised to hear the A performs substantially better than it’s spec and achieves a combat radius that is very close to the C’s radius despite the C’s greater fuel load.
The bottom line is the A is the hotrod of the three versions. That is why USAF and other partner nations with land-based air forces are not interested in the C.
LM media already rate the A as better performance bar range than the other two variants, it has the higher top speed and g rating but of course it needs to be as this is the F-16 replacement.
Dear lord he makes immense amounts of assumptions on a very uncertain topic.
Well you have seen who the author is ……:eek:
Just one thing if its a ‘strike’ aircraft wouldn’t it be a twin seat aircraft rather than a single seater ?