Giving new production AMX’s the EJ-200 engine wouldn’t be all that much more expensive. In fact I think that navalizing the AMX might not be such a bad idea. When you think about it, what else is in the class of the A-4 that is suitable for carrier operations aside from the Super Etendard, which isn’t in production anymore anyway. The Hornet is a bit too big for the Sao Paulo I believe, and the larger Super Hornet is the only version in production anyway. I say if they don’t keep updating the A-4’s then at least look into a navalized AMX. If they can navalize the MiG-29 then they can certainly navalize the AMX.

My MacDonald Douglas loving friend, there is a similar thread on feasibility of aircraft for the Foch here, much of what we discussed is similar to your points
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39045
but for now I kind of prefer keeping it strictly to A-4, AMX and Harrier.

Also I must state, the MiG-29 is a Thrust King, the AMX is impotent where it counts.

Carlos, I didn’t know you were Brazilian, all this time I thought you were British! Lets talk in Portuguese some time, I’m bad but decent 🙂

Frankly, it’s beansoup to me what kind of aircraft the Brazilians put on Foch. Realistically, the possibilities include pre-owned like ex-US naval jets (A4, A7, F18A/B or C/D) and ex-French (Super-Etendard, F8 Crusader – strictly also a ex-US jet) or new-builds. That includes matured Su-33 (too big?), Mig29K, Rafale-M, F18 E/F (too big?) and naval LCA development. Yet further options are ‘future projects’, including navalized AMX, Goshawk/Hawk200, etc. By the way, the plane I’ve been missing in these discussion so far is CTOL and STOVL versions of F35.

I don’t know about the availability of decent F-8s :confused:
A-7s are nice, but some how I’ve a feeling Brazilians don’t want to be labled as a “hand me down” military when they see their neighbors in the west having at least some real 4th gen aircraft.

Since you brought up the F-35, now I wonder of the capabilities of A-4 vs Sea Harriers 😉 neither are great for air to air, but the latter will be available soon (ex RN) and aren’t as anal about catapults either. besides.. Imagine a scenario where Argentine pilots practice their landing on the Sao Paulo only to see the aircraft of their old nemesis parked next to them :dev2:

I’m sure the Italians could be helpful with that, as they are involved with the design for India’s ADS, which is based on the Cavour STOVL carrier but CTOL. Seems logical for Brazil to work with India both for carrier and its fixed-wing aircraft complement. Brazil could put in for a version of ADS to be delivered after vessels for IN are done. By that time, Foch should be in need of replacement.

For once I agree with you here, infact that Bazan thing here
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37654
seems pretty good too, I seriously think India should’ve gone that route but I suppose its too late. Brazil should learn from the lesson of India’s costly refit of an aged carrier and get something that was designed for modern scenarios. I prefer this over buying Rafales for SP ex Foch and navalizing AMX.

but on to what you said earlier.

Burger, you left this out:

“1993 : the Foch was modified to be able to test the Rafale M : a small ski jump placed at the end of the bow catapult and a OE-82 system were installed

Because that was in 1993, the Sao Paulo was bought nearly a decade later, one would assume that their purchase included the mods, I haven’t read anything anywhere that they took it off.

read this

Rafale has the advantage that the naval version can operate from Brazil’s newly acquired aircraft carrier, the Sao Paolo, formerly the French Foch.

http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2001/April/learning_3.htm

Furthermore minor modifications are always present when putting in a new aircraft type. There already is knowledge on how to modify the Foch to handle the Rafale, and as you read, it was able to take off with a decent load. Even the A-4 required modifications to the carrier
http://frenchnavy.free.fr/ships/aircraft-carrier/foch/mina-gerais.htm

A navalized AMX would probably also require modifications to the carrier but also the aircraft to which no navalized version yet exists, something that the A-4 and Rafale have no problems with

Which F18 version did France test? Hornet (A/C) or Super Hornet (E). The former’s empty weight is 1200kg more than Rafale-M, the latter’s empty weight is 4000kg more. For both versions of Hornet the difference with Rafale-M is mainly in take-off weight (i.e. fuel and weapons load : difference of 10000kg for A/C and 6000kg for E).[/QUOTE]

As for how many you can put on and tempo
the
Super Retarded was:
Dimensions. Length:,
47 feet. Wingspan:, 31 feet, 6 inches. Height:, 12 feet, 8 inches

Rafale is:
span 10.90 m / 35 ft 9.125 in length 15.30 m / 50 ft 2.375 in
height 5.34 m / 17 ft 6.25 in.

since the Foch and its sister ship tended to carry
18 Super Etendard
4 Etendard IVP
8 Crusaders
7 Alize

I’m sure at least 20 Rafales are able to be accomodated, probably far more capable than what the MiG-29K can offer on another ship.

As for why it needs it.. yes it depends on the threat.. but certainly the Rafale is much more capable of defending itself than an AMX user who lacks NATO support and air superiority that allows the AMX to do its thing.

I’m also a bit pessimistic about a navalized LCA but lets not get into that here :dev2: