sealordlawrenceBecause they’re the ones that want it built.
Thats true, but its the Senae that has made this happen not the UK.
sealordlawrenceI have heard the federal opposition saying that they are not happy with this system either and should they come to power a review on the purchase will be one of the first things implimented and following an evaluation with a step by step adjenda they will then decide wether it is feasable to pull out and opt for something else.
One thing that is really worring both the ADF and the opposition is the fact that the current government seems to be happy to have capability gaps in defence whilest sending troops on deployments way outside our shere of influencew and then letting problems pop up on our door step.
Welcome to the UK’s world. 😉
sealordlawrenceNo doubt Rolls Royce and the UK government will be asked to cough up some money to pay for some of the development. You will recall that the continuation of the second engine programme was one of the UK governments main targets in the last few months, so that will no doubt mean that they are forced to put their money where their mouth is
I dont see why the UK government will have to come up with cash for this unless they select the engine. Rolls Royce on the other hand will be partly developing this, which is what they wanted, so they must think it is good for them.
sealordlawrenceUnfortunately the F-35 or an F-15 variant is probably the way to go. They can’t afford the F-22 in decent numbers even if it were available to them. Any version of the Hornet is a non-starter because of low performance and short range. If Australia said to the US they wanted to develope a version of the F-15 with an APG-77, more powerful engines with TVC etc. the US would do it. The USAF is already looking into the possiblity of an APG-77 with more modules than the F-22 for the F-15 and both P&W and GE have tested 36,000lb thrust varients of the F100 and F110 with 3D TVC. They could probably even swing Meteor integration. Compared to the Super Hornet it would be miles ahead.
I agree entirely, personally I think an F-15/F-35 mix would be a good option for Australia. But I will still keep dreaming about a strike Raptor!!!
sealordlawrenceThe F-136 is actually a good move as an alternative engine is always good for competition. Regarding the 1 year delay, I think if it is only a year delay then the F-35 is in very good shape as we only need to look at some other attempts at modern fighters (f-22,EF,LCA etc etc) that have been delayed several years.
Indeed, the F-35 is having its problems but then so does every fighter project, cost escalation being suffered by pretty much every devlopment/ production programme of recent years. But thus far the JSF is not doing that badly.
sealordlawrenceI’m not so sure about that, SeaLL might be neutral otherwise, but this thread sure does not seem to highlight that neutral tendency of his. Nick pretty much has him on a number of important points:
1) Insisting upon the media reports being completely true despite the fact that the official document is yet to be released. He seems to make his vehemence even stronger since he cannot (has not so far anyway) pointed out any official indian sources, only second/third party sources at best.
2) Falsifying and sanctioning media reports as per his convenience. hence the tendency to ignore the israeli report while taking the indian media reports as gospel.
3) Categorically denying his own comments about India wanting the JSF and being turned down by the U.S. Again SLLis unwilling/unable to backup his claim with any sources.
4) Making slanderous comments such as Britain “owning” india which clearly belie his bias.And you call him neutral.Riiight.
Regards,
USS.
1) I have never stated that the media reports are the absolute truth, simply that at this stage there is nothing to contradict them. No source has been provided any counter arguments to them, there have been no official denials. We only have sources saying it happened. If somebody can provide a comment from the CAG, from HAL or from the IAF. Further more a number of the sources I have given use qoutes supposedly taken directly from the report, thus they can be considered as first hand.
2) I have not falsified any media reports, I doubt the Israeli report becouse others have stated that the it is the F-16E/F which will be offered, thus the Israeli report is contradicted and cast into doubt. A further point is that previous reports posted at this forum have stated that India is after an AESA radar something which the F-16I currently does not have, this is another factor which casts the Israeli report into doubt.
For Instance this article, http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/03/mirage-2000s-withdrawn-as-indias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes/index.php
Or this one mentioning the expected requirement for an AESA radar. http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/asian/asian_06/d2indias1.htm
3) If you actually read that post you will relise that I never said that India was refused the JSF, I was pointing out that other countrys have had very serious issues gaining ToT deals through the JSF programme and that this may be an indication of the level of ToT that will be offered by the US in the MRCA programme. In fact the comment which I discuss below comes from a post which if you follow the converation clearly shows that I was reffering to the UK amongst others.
4) It is comment which I regret as it has obviously caused offence and for that I apologise. I was simply attempting use it as a marker of time.
Now I have explained myself I would apreciate it if you withdrew your inaccurate comments.
sealordlawrenceWell I suppose it adds variety anyway.
sealordlawrenceIf I were Australia I would go for a mix of F-15E’s (built to the F-15SG standard) and F-22’s (if they are available) With the Loss of the F-111 the F-15E is probably the best striker out there for Australia (bearing in mind politics)
IfI was lockheed I would fit EOTS and DASS to the F-22 and market it as a strike raptor!!!
sealordlawrenceI have never said how the cost escalation happenned I have simply pointed out what has been reported and you have failed to provide anything contrary to those reports.
The Israeli report on the other hand has been contradicted by other articles, unlike the reports about the CAG presentation to the Indian parliament which have yet to be contradicted by any source. With out access to the report we can only evaluate what has been published in the press and thus far this has been very consistent, which is a strong indication of the reliability of the news reports.
It is impossible to have a sensible discussion with people like you who are intent on making personal attacks and criticising a persons writing and spelling style when it is apparent that your argument is flawed. I do not have particular agenda i am not pakistani I have no problem with India i am just attempting to take a fair and balanced analysis of the evidence at hand, I am sorry if that upsets you.
sealordlawrenceI do not see it so fast, if at all. A general energy-shortage is looming and unsolved ecological debts to overcome. The last bill will come with some years delay, when ignored, but it will be presented in the future too.
About the last sentence. Eire is even less in population, why be angered about the fate of few million people at all?!
I am still in hope that I misunderstand you and that we share the same democratic values presented by the UN?!
I have democratic values but I see little reason to risk the lives hundreds of millions of people to preserve the freedom of less than 20 million. Democracy is a fine ideal, but civilisation is far more important. It is neccesary for every nation to negotiate comprimises between its own values and the wealfare of its people.
Unfortunately a large majority of analysts do believe it will happen and the date I gave is not one of my own creation but a commonly used one.
sealordlawrenceProbably not, given the fact that the US is properly refusing to allow Israel access to the necessary technology needed to integrate their own systems with the F-35.
As a side note, this is just stupid. ELP may not have been completely PC about it, but he does have a point. Israel has been China’s not-so-covert partner in weapons development for years. Why we would want to risk JSF technology being transferred to China is beyond me. Personally, I don’t think it would matter militarily insofar as tech transfer to China is concerned; I don’t see the US and China ever getting into it. Our relationship is getting better, not worse. The problem arises when a Chinese JSF-type appears and hits the export market, ending up in unsavory places like Iran. Also, given the fact that China is rapidly progressing in the military aviation industry, finally getting away from the FISHBED derivative concept and producing a legitimate 4th generation fighter in the form of the J-10 (I’m not in any way sold on the FC-1s value other than as a FISHBED family replacement; the J-10 is far superior), it’s possible that 15 years down the line the Chinese JSF type could potentially draw export orders away from the F-35. Not overly plausible, but still potentially possible.
Israel. Really, why do we bother with them? Clearly, this is a relationship that is far more trouble than it’s worth.
Great post. The reality is that by 2050 the chinese economy will be larger than that of the US, im not saying that the US is going to dissapear as a great power just that it wont be the only one anymore. It is therefore entirely plausable that by that time its military-industrial complex will have reached the same tech level as the US. There is no real need for the US and china to go to war, the Taiwan issue is just stupid, just let the chinese have it, they dont have any serious territorial claims beyond that and most countrys have a one china policy anyway. Hell theres only about 13 million people on the Island anyway.
sealordlawrenceThe RAF has pleant of A2G capability with the Harrier Gr-9’s and Tornado Gr-4’s.
sealordlawrenceNot really, as a Harrier replacement the F-35B is unrivaled.
Comparing it to EF would be like comparing the F-18C to the AV-8B e.g. the USMC should get rid off the Harriers because their not supersonic.
Now all becomes clear, you are after yet another JSF versus Typhoon thread, well sorry but im not going to bite. 😉
The F-35B has been ordered to replace the Harriers, the F-35C would be a far better option for only a little extra money spent on the carriers. The Typhoon on the other hand is intended to replace the Jaguars, Tornado F-3’s officialy. But it is becoming increasing apparent that strike capable Typhoons combined with the JSF’s and as yet unspecified UAV’s will form the RAF’s future strike and air dominance capability.
The RAF didnt have the option of waiting for the JSF to replace its entire fleet, the Jaguars and Tornado F-3 were/are in desperate need of replacement and the Typhoon offers a quantum leap in capability including being dual role. So whilst the Typhoon is now entering service the JSF is no were near ready for delivery to the RAF, thus the RAF’s procurement needs are at least in some respects met.
sealordlawrenceactually SeaLordLawrence is pretty neutral (even pretty pro-Russian aircraft producer) on matters like this, it seems like you are the one that seems to get upset over nothing.
Thankyou tphuang. I find it very sad that some people are so incapable of having a sensible debate that they resort to listing spelling mistakes. I will outline my points one last time.
1) The CAG report, quoted in AFM, and at the following websites,
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=386128
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1812883&C=asiapac
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060520/asp/nation/story_6247042.asp
If you can provide any article or source whatsoever countering the comments in these articles or denying the existance of the CAG report then I will consider them. In the mean time it is apparent that the mass of sources appears to support the existance of the CAG report and the fact that it was highly critical of the MKI programme.
2) Where you got the idea from that I had claimed that India was refused I do not know. My comment was clear enough and knowbody else appears to have suffered from the kind of confusion that you have. It may well be that in your haste to launch a personal attack you simply read what you wanted to read. I never claimed that the IAF had been refused the JSF.
3) Mig, is desperate for the MRCA deal, not only is it a massive contract but it is Migs only real hope of remaining an independant company. For that reason it is far more willing to offer greater technology transfer and licensing agreements. Equally, although the economic situation in Russia has improved dramatically since the MKI deal there is still a desire to bring in foreign revenue to support an arms industry which is to large to be sustained by domestic orders. Thus, it is more than apparent this deal means far more to Russia and Russian companys than it does to the US.
4) The F-16I offer comes from an Israeli news paper source. Other more numerous previous sources have said that the F-16E/F is the plane on the cards. This would make more sense as it has been reported that the IAF desires an AESA radar, something which the F-16I currently dosnt have. The offer of the F-16I would also do little if anything to increase the ToT package and reduce the threat of sanctions from the US, due to the fact that it uses an american radar, airframe and engne. In fact other than the EW suite and other elements of software there isnt that much Israeli kit in it.
I will quite happily carry on a civilised an polite discussion with Nick but it is becoming increasingly apparent from your posts that you are not capable of this. If you find my poor spelling a problem then I apologise but I have not had any complaints before.
sealordlawrenceI gave you the Official website, perhaps you coud learn to read and find the official report…
Here it is ..again
No wait…what you were doing is citing speculative commentary and insisting that it is true, when we dont have the actual report released yet to crosscompare..and when told to hold off…you reacted with angry whining…
So please…enough of your tomfoolery..most of us knew about CAG before you even heard of it..and know how their reports are usually mucked up and about by the press…so we know better than to go rah rah or waah waah till we read the actual report. :rolleyes:
Yada yada yada and all your usual nonsensical obfuscation…I asked you for a source for that rather silly claim of India asking for the JSF and it being denied by the US…
Now its MiG is desparate for a sale..whatever…where is that JSF thing you were peddling? :rolleyes:
So you give up making sensible arguments becouse you dont have any. I never said anything about the JSF in this thread, thats just something from your little fantasy land :rolleyes: .
But since you mentioned it, the JSF is currently under production with several countrys other than the US already committed to the type. In comparison the Mig-35 has yet to fly in any form other than the Mi-g-29OVT demonstrator. Mig has no big orders in the pipeline and the MRCA deal is realy their last chance so yes they are desperate. :rolleyes:
I can provide you with multiple news sources for the CAG report on the MKI, and you have none either denying it or giving a contrary comment to it. You have nothing on the issue other reports saying it happened.
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