RE: World Summit on sustainable development in Johannesburg

And serious tyrants in developed countries?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation (Part2)

Hi, Vortex.

Now you see, that’s the difference between you and Scooter. You make an argument. So, you don’t think there’ll be an attack on Iraq and that this is purely intended to frighten SH into calming down. I hope that’s all it comes to in the end because I really don’t think much he’s that much of a threat.

As for the prisoners in Cuba, thank you for opinion. I can understand America is finding it difficult to decide what to do with them. I think they should be tried and if found guilty they should be punished appropriately, even executed. After all, that is a courtesy you even granted to Nazi war criminals.

The comment about money and aid, can you explain a bit more as I know nothing about that side of things.

Thanks for actually trying to discuss the issues.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Postman Gets A Painful Delivery

Mmm………interesting. In the photograph of the door we see a standard letter box flap which opens upwards from the bottom. The postman then pushes the letters underneath the flap. I would presume this is when the cat attacks. If so, why would there be blood on the outside of the letterbox flap? Surely it would rub off his hand on the inside of the flap?

The cat in the picture, “ahhh, lovely pussy cat.” Just look at those eyes. There’s a cat in my street with an angelic look on his face, until you see the eyes. Wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him. He sits in the street, in the middle of the road, licking his various appendages and shows absolutely no fear of traffic, he only moves when he’s ready.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation (Part2)

Hi, Scooter.

“PhantomII- Don’t waste your time with these people. There bias against the US is almost suffocating! I was looking for a good debate on the issues. Thought, all I got was pure propaganda!”

Scooter, why oh why have you thrown your toys out of the pram? You were never looking for a good debate, you just wanted to expound your views on the greatness of the ‘good ol’ US of A.’ Debate means discussion, an exchange of ideas, neither of which we have had from you. Myself and others have asked you to provide justification for America’s stance on Iraq and all we ever get is ‘SH is evil.’ We asked you how would America fill the power vacuum SH would leave, have you provided an answer? We ask if the Taleban prisoners will ever receive a trial? Your answer, ‘they have no rights.’ That answer comes directly from the ‘land of the free.’

“all I got was pure propaganda!”

That’s what we thought we were getting from you. ‘Bush is right, America is great, SH is evil, Europe are wrong. You tell us Iraq has an evil regime. OK, that may be so. We ask you why you have not intervened to stop other evil regimes, Rwanda was one example? The fact that you refuse to answer anyone’s questions just indicates how closed minded you are.

“Maybe their working for good old Saddam? There words help keep murdering dictators like him in power by shifting blame to others! Didn’t the NAZI’s blame the Jew’s for all of there problems?”

Aren’t the Americans blaming SH for all their problems? It seems that you are.

“Mmm, something in me says this is complete BS! The little voices inside of me I guess. Look, the Americans are blaming us for supporting Saddam, how soon we forget. Most countries already had a war on terrorism long before 9/11, it’s only now that the US jumps in and it already starts accusing other countries of not supporting this war.”

It’s been said before Gef, but you won’t get Scooter to listen. His idea of debate is to rant and rave to articulate his views and then totally ignore anyone else’s responses. I sincerely hope not all Americans share the same point of view because if they do this world will become an even more dangerous place than it is today.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Not insensitive, but realistic.

Hi, Gef,

“I have thought about it for some time now, I tried to understand your opinion on this, and I’ll try to put less cynism in my next post, because I see you don’t find it appropriate in these posts. Maybe it is because I’m too young (will not deny it) that I was so sarcastic, or maybe just because I’m right …”

I appreciate your comment, I honestly cannot envisage how sarcasm has any appropriate place in a discussion like this. Yes you are young but you are certainly no fool, that much is clear but as to whether you are right?

“The members of the local community … shocked, no doubt, afraid, even more, angry, yes … are their lives ruined, nope. The police, no doubt, for the men searching for these girls, it must have been a very tyring (physically and emotionally) two weaks. The media is involved in it because it wanted to be involved in it. I’m not talking about a local newspaper in Soham, which is most likely written by a relative of these girls, but BBC, ITV etc….. than they surely should be able to go through this.”

News media get involved because it is their job but don’t think that some reporters don’t get emotionally involved in the stories they cover because some do, I’ve seen it happen.

“Not, forgotten, in fact, they will be brought up every year over and over again. The case won’t be forgotten, the trial has to come and etc, but the horror these girls have gone through, this is what will be forgotten!”

I think the horror of such events is the one thing that will not be forgotten.

“I mean emotionally involved.”

Have you been around dead children? How much more involved emotionally can you be? The pathologist who carried out the post mortems will have been emotionally involved. You can only divorce yourself from the physical aspects of such a job for so long. Yes, it’s a matter of searching for clues as to how they died, a real mental exercise, but when the job is done you can’t tell me that people aren’t emotionally affected. Same for all the others I listed.

“Never said that, said I’ve lived some of my childhood in the
AFTERMATH of the Dutroux-case.”

That is your response to my telling you how I don’t see how you can truly imagine the horror the victims and their families went through. So can I take you back to post 19 and my comment…

‘We don’t know how long the girls were held before they were killed, or how they died, or the agonies and the terror they went through before their deaths.’

And your reply..

“True, and I can imagine what it must have been like for the victims and the relatives…”

No, you cannot and I hope you are never put in a position where you can.

“Now I have to be harsh again, but do you think CNN would report this case if a war in Iraq would have been going on? The press consists of humans, that doesn’t mean they are ‘humane’.”

Don’t care what CNN do or do not report. The press write about human suffering and the deaths of Holly and Jessica are certainly about suffering and certainly not ‘humane.’

“Law-books are not based on morality, but on facts and punishments.
The public may have already ‘killed’ him, like with Dutroux.”

I defy you to explain and convince me that the murderer has any rights left after what he has done, and what appear to be his cynical attempts to avoid blame and proper punishment. What do you want to do? ‘Rehabilitate’ him and put him in charge of schoolgirls just to show how justice can be done and the ‘real’ victim rehabilitated?

“As I said, now is too early. Wait 2 more months. Than we’ll discuss again.”

I look forward to it, but I fear you won’t change my opinion, nor I yours.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Not insensitive, but realistic.

Hi, Gef.

“Don’t worry, I can get some criticism, if it is justified. But what I said is still my own personnal opinion. I don’t expect people to understand my point of view, as long as they respect it.”

It’s my personal opinion as well and I do of course respect your views, though I freely admit I’m struggling to understand your current standpoint.

“Sorry for being harsh, but I would say wrongly. Whatever may have happened to those small children (which is a tragedy ofcourse, make no mistakes about it), there are only a few people personally involved.”

Please define few. There are the two extended families, the friends of the families, classmates, teachers, neighbours, the police, media and news crews (an ITV reporter spoke movingly about his unprofessionalism at becoming too personally involved), the members of the local community who knew them. Take all these into account and you are looking at a considerable number of people.

“The other ones are leaded by false emotions, which will disappear once this whole media-circus will be over. (Believe me, I’m talking about experience, ask Frank if you want verification).

No, I think you are again misunderstanding the depth of feeling this case has engendered and I don’t believe it will be dismissed lightly. Snowman has already mentioned the Bulger case and that of Sarah Payne. How about the Moors murders? You can hardly say these events have been forgotten.

“The people from the community have done whatever they could, and they need psychological help. There are maybe 100 people directly involved in this.”

See above. The numbers are already greater than this and will continue to increase. Judges, jury, legal represantatives, the hospital staff, morticians, funeral directors… The list goes on.

“But if someone who lives 100 km away from Soham can’t sleep from it at night, than there’s really something wrong. I just can’t/don’t believe it. It’s also strange that the whole village now needs psychological help.”

First of all, I think they said psychological help and counselling would be available to those who needed it. Many people are affected in various ways. This tragedy will leave more of a mark on some than it does on others.

“True, and I can imagine what it must have been for the victims and the relatives.”

No, you might think you can. How can you conceivably imagine the terrors Holly and Jessica went through? The anguish of their families, their friends, the police? Sorry, but how can you possibly imagine it unless you’ve lived through it?

“OK, I was wrong, not in the British press, but it’s strange that these things were also widely discussed in the foreign press, eventhough this is a national matter I would guess.”

No, I believe this to be a ‘human’ matter which transcends all national or international borders.

“This guy is a psycho, he should be kept in the prison or in a secure hospital for the rest of his days.”

This man, if guilty, has morally given up any right to life he may have had by the actions he took against Holly and Jessica.

“No you won’t. Many people would like to see him death, but do you wanna see him die, that’s the question or even worse, would you pull the trigger? Believe me, in 2 months, you won’t talk anymore like this, you’ll probably just say: I hope he’s punished severe and let the police do its work.”

No, I won’t, but only because I will never have the opportunity. This won’t be forgotten and I’m damned sure the current legal system will never punish this man enough for what he has done.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Alexander The Great

I would have thought the Greeks would have been better building a monument to Thomas Cook.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Not insensitive, but realistic.

Geforce,

I like you, I like our discussions. Most of the time you come across as intelligent beyond your years, but this time I have to disagree. First of all, please forgive me if I get heated, it is nothing personal against you but this is a topic which is drawing strong emotions among many people.

“Probably insensitive, but also realistic, Snowman. It’s obvious that these stories are widely reported in the British and foreign press because there’s not much other news to talk about.”

No! Many people feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have become personally involved in this case. This is two young girls from a small community who were well known in that community. They have no history of running away from home or disappearing for a prank. After a happy family occasion they went for a walk, together. They should be safe enough, it’s a small enough village. They weren’t, and many people from the community expended their time and energy in a fruitless search and emotional appeals for their safe return. Including the man accused of their murder. Thirteen days went by before the police made their breakthrough. Thirteen days in which much of this country hoped and prayed for a happy resolution. We don’t know how long the girls were held before they were killed, or how they died or the agonies and the terror they went through before their deaths. In the light of these events, how can you say the grief and expressions of sympathy from across the world are nothing more than it being the result of a ‘slow news week’? Gef, I’m almost certain you are not the heartless individual that this post makes you appear.

Now, we have a situation in which the man accused of their murder has been detained under the Mental Health Act in a secure hospital. The police have said he has not spoken since his arrest and spends his time ‘dribbling constantly.’ The inference at present is that he is mentally ill and there is some debate about whether he will be fit enough to stand trial. He, himself, made an emotional appeal for the girls return almost certainly after their deaths. Was he dribbling then? No, not until he was caught. If it is conclusively proved he is guilty of their abduction and murder then he deserves to die, and for the first time in my life I believe I could kill someone without any compunction.

“If there would have been a war in Iraq, nobody would know about this incident. The press knows how to work on people’s emotions. In the Dutroux-case, it even went that far that the gov’t had to put a ban on some newsprograms for a while, because they were making the public angry (sometimes with reasons, sometimes without). I still remember the immage of a yelling crowd when Dutroux entered the police station. Now these same people probably don’t even know why they did it … rediculous.”

Please, don’t presume to know or understand the depth of feeling which has been triggered by this case in the UK. You admit to being probably insensitive? I’m sorry but the tone of your last post indicates an almost sinister level of cynicism in someone so young.

Regards,

kev35