RE: Not insensitive, but realistic.

Geforce,

I like you, I like our discussions. Most of the time you come across as intelligent beyond your years, but this time I have to disagree. First of all, please forgive me if I get heated, it is nothing personal against you but this is a topic which is drawing strong emotions among many people.

“Probably insensitive, but also realistic, Snowman. It’s obvious that these stories are widely reported in the British and foreign press because there’s not much other news to talk about.”

No! Many people feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have become personally involved in this case. This is two young girls from a small community who were well known in that community. They have no history of running away from home or disappearing for a prank. After a happy family occasion they went for a walk, together. They should be safe enough, it’s a small enough village. They weren’t, and many people from the community expended their time and energy in a fruitless search and emotional appeals for their safe return. Including the man accused of their murder. Thirteen days went by before the police made their breakthrough. Thirteen days in which much of this country hoped and prayed for a happy resolution. We don’t know how long the girls were held before they were killed, or how they died or the agonies and the terror they went through before their deaths. In the light of these events, how can you say the grief and expressions of sympathy from across the world are nothing more than it being the result of a ‘slow news week’? Gef, I’m almost certain you are not the heartless individual that this post makes you appear.

Now, we have a situation in which the man accused of their murder has been detained under the Mental Health Act in a secure hospital. The police have said he has not spoken since his arrest and spends his time ‘dribbling constantly.’ The inference at present is that he is mentally ill and there is some debate about whether he will be fit enough to stand trial. He, himself, made an emotional appeal for the girls return almost certainly after their deaths. Was he dribbling then? No, not until he was caught. If it is conclusively proved he is guilty of their abduction and murder then he deserves to die, and for the first time in my life I believe I could kill someone without any compunction.

“If there would have been a war in Iraq, nobody would know about this incident. The press knows how to work on people’s emotions. In the Dutroux-case, it even went that far that the gov’t had to put a ban on some newsprograms for a while, because they were making the public angry (sometimes with reasons, sometimes without). I still remember the immage of a yelling crowd when Dutroux entered the police station. Now these same people probably don’t even know why they did it … rediculous.”

Please, don’t presume to know or understand the depth of feeling which has been triggered by this case in the UK. You admit to being probably insensitive? I’m sorry but the tone of your last post indicates an almost sinister level of cynicism in someone so young.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi,Scooter.

“I guess that we will have to agree on disagreeing about the rest. You have some points that have merit. Yet, I believe you draw conclusion without seeing the whole picture.”

First of all, I think we will have to agree to disagree and thank you for saying I have made some points which have merit. As for not seeing the whole picture? Well I could accuse you of the same with this insane obsession with Saddam Hussein.

“Most of these topics are very complicated to say the least! Just like the Ireland problem and the IRA.”

Of course they are complicated which is why I can’t understand your simplistic viewpoint that the world suddenly becomes a safer place without Saddam Hussein in it. Several of us have asked what happens to Iraq when Hussein is ousted, not once have you given any indication that America has a plan to cope with the power vacuum which would be created.

“You and your supporters must disagree with your respect of goverments. Because most support the US positon on many of these same points.”

????????????? Me and my supporters? I’m a 41 year old disabled man who probably has too much time on his hands, and definitely too much pain. Supporters? My only supporters are my walking sticks! I have not got a clue what you are talking about there, could you please enlighten me?

“…..unless you believe that your goverments are puppets of the US! (Which, I think is highly unlikely?)”

Not so sure about that. Britain’s friendship with America has been a long, enduring and beneficial one to both nations. However, reports here seem to indicate a distinct lack of support for Bush’s one man crusade. Half the government are against any further military action in Iraq, the general public don’t appear too keen and as for the Conservative party they are just hoping to pick up the pieces. I think many Brits currently see our relationship with America as Britain answering to her Master’s sharp yank on the lead.

“So, maybe the truth is that your views are in the minority…….”

I may indeed be a minority of one, but if America is such a defender of freedom I am sure I can call on your support to allow me to expound my radical minority views.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Scooter,

You either don’t listen or you’re just trying to be obtuse. Your Taleban prisoners should in all likelihood be executed. But America is the country that expounds the virtues of freedom, justice and the American way. So why don’t you try these prisoners and see justice done? Have you no evidence? Try them, if they are guilty convict them then carry out whatever sentence is passed. The vilest murderers are correctly tried, convicted, sentenced and these sentences carried out. So what is the difference? You grant more rights to murderers, rapists, child molesters and every other conceivable kind of criminal than you do to the Taleban prisoners. I’m not suggesting you let them go, just try them and punish them.

What’s so difficult to understand?

If you carried out your war against terror in a calm, considered, sane fashion you would find you had a lot more support.

But if we’re going to talk numbers, yes, some 2,800 people died in the WTC. Over the years some hundreds of British troops were killed in Northern Ireland or as a result of Irish terrorism. Who were among their greatest supporters? I can’t remember can you? oh yes, it’s coming back to me now, it was the American people. You’re suddenly so outraged because terrorism has reached your shores yet many American people actually encouraged Irish terrorism financially. Many countries have lived with terrorism for years and America couldn’t have cared less.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Scooter,

“Now we are talking about Americans massacring poor Taliban….Of course you have proof? You were their! You’ve spoken to someone that
was there?”

I have as much proof that it did happen as you have that it didn’t. Of course I wasn’t there, but even if I had have been, would I have bumped into you? I have an open mind, it may or may not have happened, if it did there may have even been some justification for it. Whatever happened, no-one would be charged for a massacre anyway after America wangled themselves immunity from any prospective war crimes charges. Are you above the law you wish to impose?

“Of course your goverment hasn’t done things like massacres? As a matter of fact aren’t you from the UK? Wasn’t the UK a Empire that ruled the world at one time. As a matter of fact not to long ago!What is the UK gulity of?”

I wouldn’t say the UK ruled the world, but it definitely had more influence than it does now. As for massacres, yes, I can think of several. And of course, before you throw this at me, we were the first nation to introduce the concentration camp. Maybe the difference is that, with the exception of the troubles in Northern Ireland, we stopped slaughtering the indigenous population a good few hundred years ago.

“I think maybe you take a closer look in the mirror? The US has and does make mistakes. Yet, you and many others are condemning the US for things your goverment are guility of themselfs!!!!”

Is the UK holding prisoners from the conflict which the US openly calls ‘the war on terror’ without charge and without any legal representation or rights? Is the UK unilaterally intending to engage in a war with Iraq for no other reason than to rid the country of its leader? Are UK and other forces going to be expected to provide the peacekeepers if America succeeds and then leaves the country in ruins?

“If, you don’t like Americans. At least be honest and tell everyone!”

I like Americans, of course, I couldn’t eat a whole one (English humour). That’s the whole point. I like and, hold your breath, respect Americans. Your country has always been at the forefront of democracy, this is why I, and I suspect others, are worried about why America has suddenly become so gung-ho. Americans have done so much for other countries over the years. I just can’t see why the American people revere a leader who seems hell-bent on getting thousands of young Americans killed. Surely, a great nation such as yours deserves so much better.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Scooter,

“So, many are saying the world should just leave people like SH in power regardless what they do to there own citizens and neighbors. Hmmmm…”

As others have said, what about the other dictatorships and evil regimes which are allowed to exist or are even encouraged by America? Why this constant obsession with Iraq?

And in light of the fact that American troops have now been implicated in the massacre of Taleban prioners, (this means after their surrender so isn’t that technically murder?) will America’s definitions of right, wrong and evil be altered to take into account what has happened in Afghanistan? Is this perhaps the reason America demanded immunity for any of its troops accused of committing war crimes.

On another point, an Iraqi opposition group is holding hostage the staff of the Iraqi embassy in Berlin. People are reported to have been injured. In light of America’s much vaunted war against terrorism, will the perpetrators of this siege be considered to be terrorists or pro democracy freedom fighters?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi, Scooter.

What’s so wrong with leaving things alone? He’s a dictator but he’s no real threat, you yourself have said that. And why the obsession with Iraq? There have been numerous other countries with oppressive regimes but America has seen no reason to get involved there. Monitor him, America has the technology, and when there is clear evidence that he is capable of, or planning to cause further destabilisation of the region, then take him but get the UN on side first, get a proper mandate and get at least some support for your actions.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Can we get over the grief first?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-08-02 AT 06:12 PM (GMT)]Hi, Comet.

“I cannot politely express what should be done to the child murdering scum. My sympathies are solely with the families of Holly and Jessica, not the bastards who commit these crimes.”

I think we can take your statement above as read. You know from the death penalty thread that I agree with you about these matters. You are right, it is wholly the right time to express our sympathies to and for the families. However, I don’t think this is the right time to express the anger we all so justifiably feel.

I just keep thinking ‘what if someone from Holly or Jessica’s families read this?’ We are just perpetuating the misery and anger that they will be feeling with far more justification than us. The time to discuss the ramifications of such an event will come later. In the meantime, can’t we just leave people to grieve?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-08-02 AT 06:00 PM (GMT)]PII,

“The funny thing about all this bickering is that it is rather pointless. Saddam Hussein is going to be knocked out of power. Bush has pretty much decided to go with it though, he hasn’t given any time frame.”

One nation, acting unilaterally against the advice and without the support of almost any other nation in the world? A few weeks ago we had this discussion about America being a rogue nation which I didn’t agree with. But aren’t these actions consistent with a rogue nation? Surely the American people can see this is just President Bush’s own personal agenda? You talk about a war on terror, so tell me, how many Irish Republican terrorists have been arrested by America? How many Basque separatists? How man Kashmiris? Have you even charged anyone with the anthrax attack on your own shores? You talk of ridding the world of an evil oppressive regime. Fair enough, but if America’s actions are so altruistic, why didn’t you do anything in Rwanda? or Chechnya?

“Iraq knows this and is going to try and beef up their defenses…..hardened bunkers and such….lol…..what a joke. Everything they have is in bad shape and doesn’t compare to what we have.”

So, knowing American superiority over the Iraqis, why do you consider them such a threat?

“But you can rest assure, Saddam Hussein will either die or be captured. I’d prefer to knock him out with a GBU-12, but who knows what will happen.”

Great. You kill him. Then what? You put an American pupp… sorry, representative in charge? You hold democratic elections? Who ensures fair play in the elections? Who would America allow to stand in such an election? Whose law would be observed in the country, American or Islamic? All we hear is the ‘let’s kill Hussein’ rhetoric. Has anyone heard the Americans say what would happen if he is ousted?

Regards,

kev35