Iraqi Invitation

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Scooter,

“Now we are talking about Americans massacring poor Taliban….Of course you have proof? You were their! You’ve spoken to someone that
was there?”

I have as much proof that it did happen as you have that it didn’t. Of course I wasn’t there, but even if I had have been, would I have bumped into you? I have an open mind, it may or may not have happened, if it did there may have even been some justification for it. Whatever happened, no-one would be charged for a massacre anyway after America wangled themselves immunity from any prospective war crimes charges. Are you above the law you wish to impose?

“Of course your goverment hasn’t done things like massacres? As a matter of fact aren’t you from the UK? Wasn’t the UK a Empire that ruled the world at one time. As a matter of fact not to long ago!What is the UK gulity of?”

I wouldn’t say the UK ruled the world, but it definitely had more influence than it does now. As for massacres, yes, I can think of several. And of course, before you throw this at me, we were the first nation to introduce the concentration camp. Maybe the difference is that, with the exception of the troubles in Northern Ireland, we stopped slaughtering the indigenous population a good few hundred years ago.

“I think maybe you take a closer look in the mirror? The US has and does make mistakes. Yet, you and many others are condemning the US for things your goverment are guility of themselfs!!!!”

Is the UK holding prisoners from the conflict which the US openly calls ‘the war on terror’ without charge and without any legal representation or rights? Is the UK unilaterally intending to engage in a war with Iraq for no other reason than to rid the country of its leader? Are UK and other forces going to be expected to provide the peacekeepers if America succeeds and then leaves the country in ruins?

“If, you don’t like Americans. At least be honest and tell everyone!”

I like Americans, of course, I couldn’t eat a whole one (English humour). That’s the whole point. I like and, hold your breath, respect Americans. Your country has always been at the forefront of democracy, this is why I, and I suspect others, are worried about why America has suddenly become so gung-ho. Americans have done so much for other countries over the years. I just can’t see why the American people revere a leader who seems hell-bent on getting thousands of young Americans killed. Surely, a great nation such as yours deserves so much better.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Well, I don’t see the point of going on! Now we are talking about Americans massacring poor Taliban….Of course you have proof? You were their! You’ve spoken to someone that was there? I think that whatever I say would twist things around to make the US look gulity. Of course your goverment hasn’t done things like massacres? As a matter of fact aren’t you from the UK? Wasn’t the UK a Empire that ruled the world at one time. As a matter of fact not to long ago! What is the UK gulity of? How about Germany, Russia, Japan, etc. etc. I think maybe you take a closer look in the mirror? The US has and does make mistakes. Yet, you and many others are condemning the US for things your goverment are guility of themselfs!!!!As for any massacre I personally have my doubts. The problem with alot of the criticism of the US is that we only hear part of the story. Later on when you get the whole story its always interesting to hear what was left out……………..If, you don’t like Americans. At least be honest and tell everyone! Otherwise quit blaming us for all of the worlds problems and take a close look at yourself.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

I’m going to stop defending America. It is a rather pointless thing to debate I’ve now come to realize.

As far as the Taliban, I’d just as soon shoot them all. The less of them there are the better. They are worthless anyway. As are the Al-Quaida things…..and I do mean things.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Scooter,

“So, many are saying the world should just leave people like SH in power regardless what they do to there own citizens and neighbors. Hmmmm…”

As others have said, what about the other dictatorships and evil regimes which are allowed to exist or are even encouraged by America? Why this constant obsession with Iraq?

And in light of the fact that American troops have now been implicated in the massacre of Taleban prioners, (this means after their surrender so isn’t that technically murder?) will America’s definitions of right, wrong and evil be altered to take into account what has happened in Afghanistan? Is this perhaps the reason America demanded immunity for any of its troops accused of committing war crimes.

On another point, an Iraqi opposition group is holding hostage the staff of the Iraqi embassy in Berlin. People are reported to have been injured. In light of America’s much vaunted war against terrorism, will the perpetrators of this siege be considered to be terrorists or pro democracy freedom fighters?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Sounds like just more propaganda and I still haven’t heard any real solutions other than to leave SH alone. So, many are saying the world should just leave people like SH in power regardless what they do to there own citizens and neighbors. Hmmmm…

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Well if you consider that WW2 was not a US intervention, but a multinational intervention against the axis regimes ….

So if you want to count pure US interventions we will find 0.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Scooter,

>So, let me get this straight. It is ok for SH to murder
>hundred of thousands of people as long as other leaders do
>it? I can’t believe you….

It is not OK for Saddam to murder hundreds of thousands of people, but it’s horribly hypocritical of the US to make this a ground for war against Iraq. If that is the case, the US should be fighting in many other nations. And if that’s the case, the US should wonder what kind of ‘freedom-loving’ leaders it has installed in the past in nations like Chili, Indonesia, Costa Rica…

>Many of you on the forum are talking down
>America. If, you don’t agree with a American policy fine.
>Express your views and we would be happy to debate you on
>any issue. If, we believe your views to be just.

Can i interpret this as a summary of the US stance on the rest of the world? “We’re happy to debate with you as long as you agree with us. If not, screw you since you’re a do-nothing coward with no understanding of the concept of good and evil.”

>When
>was the last time you had a defense briefing? How about the
>last time you took a tour of the Middle East?

Three years ago, thank you. Last time i spoke with a native Iraqi is just over a year ago, last time i spoke with an Afghani is only a few weeks back, and last week i spoke for the last time with an American (outside the scope of this forum). If you’re suggesting ignorance on my behalf because of my opinion against an unprovoked attack on Iraq by the US: i’m sorry, i can’t really say i’m ignorant.

>Sounds like
>many of you here should look alittle inward! Many other
>people and countries agree with US policy yet, I don’t see
>you or your friends attacking them????

Which country agrees with Bush’s warmongering rants against Iraq? As far i know, the number of countries which agree can be counted with the fingers growing out of my knee.

>A couple more points
>I would like to throw in. First the Falklands the US gave
>the UK much support during the War. (i.e. inteligence,
>Weapons, etc.) Just as a younger brother doesn’t want his
>older brother to fight his battles nor did the UK want the
>US to fight there war with Argentina. The UK has a first
>rate military and was more than capable of handling the
>situation. To say any different is a insult to that fine
>country! (and mine)

Wrong. The US remained strictly neutral, as the fascist Galtieri-government was strongly backed by the US. In fact, there was quite a bit debate in the US if the Argentinian claim and invasion had to be allowed, it was only Thatcher’s immediate and fierce response what kept the Reagan administration of supporting the Argentinians…

>Secondly, I would like to comment about
>another members remarks about the US entering WWII. As with
>many of these issue they are more compicated than some
>members would like us to believe. First look at America in
>1938-1941! The US just got out of a great depression were
>many lost everything they had.

Remember that the same, if not worse, was also the case in Europe. While Europe prepared for war with Hitler in the late 1930s, Time Magazine voted him ‘Man of the Year 1937’, FYI… Just like Saddam Hussein was on the CIA payroll until the late 1980s and just like Noriega was. I would support any reliable attempt at making Iraq a democratic, free, independent nation. However, that is not something i think the US is willing to do.

>Remember the the US was suppling
>large amounts of military aid.

Hardly prior to the summer of 1941, when the Lend Lease Act was finally signed. The real support only came after Pearl Harbour. The support Britain got before, was mostly Canadian.

>Maybe you should take a History class now and
>then………you mite be surprised what you learn?

History class? Okay, then let’s see how often an American intervention or invasion led to a democracy where there was none before? There are two of these: Japan and Germany.
And how many times did American intervention lead to dictatorship, opression and killings of civilians? Let’s see… Costa Rica (United Fruit), Chili (Pinochet), Iran (reinstating the Shah), South Korea (Park), Indonesia ($uharto), Congo-Zaire (Mobutu) are the ones i can think of now.
And how many times did massive opression, disregard of human rights and a massive military NOT lead to an American intervention without secondary but more realistic goals?

Just think about it Scooter, just think about it… As a Dutchman i am very grateful for what the US did for my country in WW2 (although we were mostly liberated by Canadians). But i would sound a lot different if i were Chilean, Indonesian or Costa Rican, let alone a poor Saudi, Pakistani or Afghan bum without a finger to scratch my ass while all i see is American money being wasted in my country not benefitting me, and implying my own culture is second-rate only. Just think.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-08-02 AT 10:21 AM (GMT)]I want to make some clarifications to my last post.

The US support for Irak during IPGW was not huge. I think Iran recieved much more help. He got it from France and Russia mainly.
But SH felt that he was on the US side, because of the high political tension with Iran that made it to the media. The La Belle bombing etc. gave him the feeling he was on the US team.

I doubt that the US ever controlled him or even tried to. I think they did not much care about him, except to keep his power at a controllable level. He exceeded thsi level when he entered Kuwait.

So he was not a real puppet, but a until 1990 small 3rd world dictator that did not get much US notice.
Only after he influenced US interests he became the evil bad guy he is now.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-08-02 AT 08:58 AM (GMT)]Well SH iis not evil. He is one of the US puppets that turned against his leaders.

During the IPGW Irak fought with large wester nsupport against the evil empire Iran. But after that SH did something that was not liked by the US and as it was shown in Middle America, if you do not please your masters you have to be killed.
So now he is something like Hitler, while he was fighting for freedom only 20 years before.

The US has fought more wars and invaded more countries then SH could ever hope to, even if he would try to be the great Arab leader.

Another point that makes him dangerous, he is not one of the typical weak arab leaders that give in to US pressure. He has shown that he will not back down and earned the respect of the population in the arab countries. That puts pressure on the US puppet regimes (Kuwait, Jordania, etc.)

That is why he has to be killed. The US will not fight for the freedom of Irak. That is so stupid ….. :+

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-08-02 AT 06:47 AM (GMT)]”Freedoms and rights aren’t meant just for Americans or English but, for everyone! Including Iraqi’s…….and the Iraqi’s aren’t going to be free unless the world comes togehter and defeats SH! Just as it did with Hitler and WWII………… “

That is quite true… the American declaration of independance does not give Americans their rights it just acknowledges existing human rights and outlines them.
From this of course you’d ask why prisoners in this war on terrorism (which has only been against muslim terrorists so far) which have been identified as Americans have been sent to the US while nonUS terrs went to Cuba and rather less that club med factilities.
The excuse that AL quada are not POWs is rediculous as Bush has publicly stated that it was a war on Terrorism… and the Taleban because they were aiding and abedding.

SH is an amature compared to Hitler. SH, like Hitler killed internal enemies and poison gas was used but on the chart of those killed SH is well below most of the leaders… He would probably be down near Pinochet… well below the number that were killed in Vietnam during the period when Kissenger was using it for political gain.

Lets all band together and kill Kissenger?

SH is a scumbag. Do you really think any other type of person could rise to that level in Iraq and be a nice guy? Do you really believe the replacement guy will be a nice guy?
The replacement will also have to make a decision about the Kurds.
They want their own homeland.
The replacement will have to decide whether to give it to them or keep them oppressed.
Despite what you have said about freeing oppressed people the US government will support the oppression of the Kurds simply because the Kurds don’t just want a homeland in Norther Iraq but in Iran and Turkey as well. The US would probably like to disrupt Iran but Turkey is a NATO member… the NATO charter binds the US and other members to assist Turkey if its borders are threatened… work it out!

RE: Iraqi Invitation

What’s wrong with doing nothing?

Every argument I can think of for removing SH falls down.

1. He is “evil”. Yes, I think he is too. But so are other leaders. Rwanda was mentioned. Sierra Leone? Zimbabwe? Robert Mugabe is no better than SH. His people are no less free than SH’s. So what is the rationale for singling SH out?

2. He has/will have WMD. Possibly, although the UN inspectors seems to disagree – the US inspector was especially critical of such a suggestion. Also, even if Iraq did possess Nukes, we’re back to point 1. What would Bush do if Mugabe came across a nuke? He’d be to scared of being branded a racist to do anything about it. Mugabe has killed approximately similar proportions of his populace as SH.

3. Iraq sponsors terrorism. Again, possibly. Only the CIA could only say, so I guess we take their word for it. But how about other nations? As has been said, Saudi nationals are as guilty as anyone. But the Fahd regime tolerates these people.

4. He’s weak. Really? What makes you believe that technical superiority will mean an easy victory? The Vietnam scenario looms if you think such thoughts. I’m no general, but the things which make a difference to campaign success seem like being – local knowledge, will to win, intellect of commanders, efficacy of communications and enough basic supplies. On all counts, Iraq has no problem! Their soldiers are not going to lie down against an invasion, whatever you believe that they think of SH. Numerically, they have nothing to worry about either.

5. You should not ignore the Kremlin factor. Poor it may be, but Russia still has enormous global influence. And don’t forget, Putin is fighting his own war in Chechnya, with simmering tension in North Ossetia and countless other places.

6. The arabs “want” rid of SH. Sure, the rulers of Saudi and other countries may want rid of him. But remember that the views of the governments are those of the monarchs, not the people. Besides, their logic is “negative”. They want rid of SH only to shield themselves from Iran, not because of SH per se. Negative support has a tendency to crumble!

7. US public opinion may change (I only say it may, because I’m not the best judge on the mood of the American public) when pilots are tortured live on TV. And if we talk ground war, when Joe Sixpack is tortured for trying to feed lead to the ragheads…you get my drift! Soldiers will get worse treatment than flyers did in the Gulf War.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi, Scooter.

What’s so wrong with leaving things alone? He’s a dictator but he’s no real threat, you yourself have said that. And why the obsession with Iraq? There have been numerous other countries with oppressive regimes but America has seen no reason to get involved there. Monitor him, America has the technology, and when there is clear evidence that he is capable of, or planning to cause further destabilisation of the region, then take him but get the UN on side first, get a proper mandate and get at least some support for your actions.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Well, maybe if the world get together we could come up with solutions to SH and Iraq! Instead of turning and looking away……

RE: Iraqi Invitation

So, what is your solution? Other than to do nothing!!!

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-08-02 AT 06:00 PM (GMT)]PII,

“The funny thing about all this bickering is that it is rather pointless. Saddam Hussein is going to be knocked out of power. Bush has pretty much decided to go with it though, he hasn’t given any time frame.”

One nation, acting unilaterally against the advice and without the support of almost any other nation in the world? A few weeks ago we had this discussion about America being a rogue nation which I didn’t agree with. But aren’t these actions consistent with a rogue nation? Surely the American people can see this is just President Bush’s own personal agenda? You talk about a war on terror, so tell me, how many Irish Republican terrorists have been arrested by America? How many Basque separatists? How man Kashmiris? Have you even charged anyone with the anthrax attack on your own shores? You talk of ridding the world of an evil oppressive regime. Fair enough, but if America’s actions are so altruistic, why didn’t you do anything in Rwanda? or Chechnya?

“Iraq knows this and is going to try and beef up their defenses…..hardened bunkers and such….lol…..what a joke. Everything they have is in bad shape and doesn’t compare to what we have.”

So, knowing American superiority over the Iraqis, why do you consider them such a threat?

“But you can rest assure, Saddam Hussein will either die or be captured. I’d prefer to knock him out with a GBU-12, but who knows what will happen.”

Great. You kill him. Then what? You put an American pupp… sorry, representative in charge? You hold democratic elections? Who ensures fair play in the elections? Who would America allow to stand in such an election? Whose law would be observed in the country, American or Islamic? All we hear is the ‘let’s kill Hussein’ rhetoric. Has anyone heard the Americans say what would happen if he is ousted?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

The funny thing about all this bickering is that it is rather pointless. Saddam Hussein is going to be knocked out of power. Bush has pretty much decided to go with it though, he hasn’t given any time frame. Iraq knows this and is going to try and beef up their defenses…..hardened bunkers and such….lol…..what a joke. Everything they have is in bad shape and doesn’t compare to what we have.

However, having said all this, I don’t even want to get involved in Iraq anymore…….at least for the most part I don’t. I’d really like to get out of the Middle East in general. Aside from Turkey & Israel I don’t trust any nation over there.

But you can rest assure, Saddam Hussein will either die or be captured. I’d prefer to knock him out with a GBU-12, but who knows what will happen.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi, scooter.

“Kev35- The US does not have a monopoly on rememberance! Many
fine people from all over the world have given there lives. So, you and I can express our differences freely on this forum at this very moment. As a matter of fact why do you think that we are able to express our views so freely? I can tell you why. Because many of our forefathers (both yours and mine) gave there youth and sometimes there lives. So, that we could be free!”

Why are you telling me this? I think that’s exactly the point I was getting at in a previous post.

“Just a minute ago another member was criticizing the US for not entering WWII sooner?”

I think you’ll find that was me as well. If, as you said, America knew war was inevitable and that America spent that time preparing for war, how do you explain the Japanese success at Pearl Harbour? Or wasn’t America prepared?

“Yet, in turn many here say the US shouldn’t enter a war to free Iraq?….. Yet, Europe doesn’t think the US should fight a war to free Iraqi from SH!”

So, America is going to free Iraq? Wonderful! Can you tell me who is going to provide a replacement government? And how will that be decided? And by and on whose authority? Will America maintain a standing army in Iraq to ‘enforce’ a peaceful transition to democracy? What will you do with SH? Send him to Cuba to be held captive with others to whom your great nation denies any kind of human rights? And for how long? Until the rest of the world forgets?

And why this constant tinkering with foreign policy when you are unable to sort out domestic problems? No-one could doubt the courage and determination of the NYPD and NYFD, which was amply and tragically demonstrated on September 11th, so why are they so poorly paid in comparison with others? Why do they have inferior equipment as standard and have to upgrade at their own cost? Do Americans truly believe, and I include members of your government in this, that the lives of their heroes are worth so little?

“Freedoms and rights aren’t meant just for Americans or English but, for everyone! Including Iraqi’s…….and the Iraqi’s aren’t going to be free unless the world comes togehter and defeats SH!”

But look what happened the last time you ‘helped’ the Iraqi’s. That little debacle ended with the slaughter of thousands of Marsh Arabs while the promised American help disappeared. Has it occurred to you that the Iraqi people might just have the attitude of “better the devil we know?”

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Agree with seahawk

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-08-02 AT 08:15 AM (GMT)]My opinon :

An invasion of Irak is stupid, they are no threat to anyone. And even if the US would win (without suffering terrible looses) the resulting civil war in Irak would kill more people, then SH ever could.

Irak is only a target, because Mr. Bush seems to hate the idea of a strong arab leader, who could make the region independent from US influence and SH is the only person that has enough charisma to do so.

Honestly I believe that Saudi Arabia had more influence in 9/11 then SH. Yet they are an ally, while he is evil.

(Edited for many typos – it was early in the morning)

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Kev35- The US does not have a monopoly on rememberance! Many fine people from all over the world have given there lives. So, you and I can express our differences freely on this forum at this very moment. As a matter of fact why do you think that we are able to express our views so freely? I can tell you why. Because many of our forefathers (both yours and mine) gave there youth and sometimes there lives. So, that we could be free! Just a minute ago another member was criticizing the US for not entering WWII sooner? Yet, in turn many here say the US shouldn’t enter a war to free Iraq? So, to say I am confused would be a understatement! So, the US should have entered a war half way around the world to free europeans in WWII from Hitler. Yet, Europe doesn’t think the US should fight a war to free Iraqi from SH! (nor should anyone else) Many here talk about a American double standard. Yet, when was the last time you took a look in the mirror? Freedoms and rights aren’t meant just for Americans or English but, for everyone! Including Iraqi’s…….and the Iraqi’s aren’t going to be free unless the world comes togehter and defeats SH! Just as it did with Hitler and WWII…………