Iraqi Invitation

RE: Iraqi Invitation

“Believe it or not, George W. Bush isn’t an evil or heartless man. If I were in his shoes, I’m sure I’d have the same stance he does on many things. 9/11 put so much rage into me….”

So you… full of rage would do the same things Bush is doing now.

Perhaps those terrorists who killed themselves to damage the US have more in common with you than you think?

The suggestion that 11/9 was anything to do with a struggle against freedom is BS. It had more to do with culture and way of life.
I would suggest that the terrorists did what they did not to destroy freedom (The idea that killing less than 3,200 people in the US was ever going to do this is actually so pathetic it is funny).
If you listen to what OBL has said the actions of Al Quada were to preserve their culture and way of life presumably by making the US think twice when it next sends troops all around the world in their little police actions. Waste of time if you ask me as the lesson was not learned… mostly due to the barbaric technique in which the course was taught. Also the student doesn’t realise we are all students and thinks they only need to teach.
(We are all students and teachers… the US has forgotten this.)

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Have you ever heard that sons always want to surpass their parents?.
I really regret that lots of civilian will be killed, probably for having a worse situation later. With different factions fighting each other and a caos in the region. Really bad.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Well I’m sure we all remember when Bush’s father told the marsh arabs to rise against Saddam, which they did. But the help they expected never arrived. So how come Bush Jnr has decided to do it 11 years later?

RE: Iraqi Invitation

It was really delightful hearing president Bush talking about democracy, how naughty was Saddam, and that he didn´t mind if inspectors were allowing to come back, he simply wants to overthrow the Bagdad despot because the world would appreciate it and for peace, democracy and bla, bla, bla…and all that simplistic and basic stuff some people want to hear. The mask has fallen. I don´t think Saddam wants to bring them back and I suppose that his intentions are as poisoned as a snake bite, but he is playing quite well now to embarrash the US administration. I don´t normally trust politicians and in this case even less. We all know Saddam is a ditatorship…so what¡¡¡, like dozens of countries in this planet. I don´t think the US should decide who should have power. Probably Saudi Arabia or Kuwait will be the kind of democracy, the US is looking for. About arms of mass destruction. No proves. But I suppose they are developing it. But the question is……why Iraq can´t have this weapons and Pakistan can. I suppose the missiles shield is to be built for something….I don´t think Saddam or any other country, dares to send a missile to the US. Dangers are in our own territory with terrorism. The Gulf war was a fair one to fight an agression, but this case is senseless. I suppose the Armament Lobby want to test new weapons, Mr Bush wants to make a bit of electoralism. If the UN agrees, I would be in favour. The question is…why sanctions are not lifted?. I suppose it nice for the US allies in the Gulf, produce the oil couta, Iraq can´t. And I would be happy if Saddam is overthrown, but not like that and by external influence. The iraqis should do it.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Nobody hates freedom, PII.

Your anaylsis of the motivations of Mohammed Atta and his lot is a bit simplistic.

Maybe their point was that the freedom of their own people is denied by the US.

Similarly, with Israel. You seem to think the Israelis are the good guys and all their neighbours are terrorist scum. Simply not true; Israel has a lot to answer for. That attutude, as held by the US gov’t, is one of the reasons certain people hate the US.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Mongu, I think you are a little confused. To say that nobody hates freedom isn’t really true. The people like the animals that did 9/11 want nothing more than chaos. They want people who aren’t like them to fear them. They want women to be useless and of no important. These people are the enemies of freedom, or of countries that stand for it like the United States.

And Kev, I think you are letting Bush’s speech get to you a bit too much. You always criticize him as if you know exactly how he works even though you don’t know the man personally. If he cared nothing for the people he could send to war, I doubt he’d have gotten as far as he has over the years. Believe it or not, George W. Bush isn’t an evil or heartless man. If I were in his shoes, I’m sure I’d have the same stance he does on many things. 9/11 put so much rage into me….

And as far as the Middle East is concerned, every day that passes by causes me to wish ever more that we had nothing to do with that part of the world. I mean what’s the point? Nothing will ever change over there. It’s quite hopeless. I only wish there was a way to move the entire country of Israel. They don’t deserve to be surround by such….

RE: Iraqi Invitation

It amazes me that rank and file Americans can be keen on the upcoming war. This will be no walk in the park like 1991 – the Iraqis will fight back. Thousands of US troops will die and thousands will be maimed.

The old expression “war is hell” is very apt. It’s too easy to glamourise it if you think it will be a one sided conflict. And the US population don’t like any war dead; they lost only a mere handful of men in Vietnam, by comparison to what the Allies lost in WW2. But the fallout from that was politically and culturally apocalyptic.

Also, to say that the US is hated by terrorists because it is “free” is inaccurate. Nobody hates freedom. Until the US faces up to the real reasons why their regime creates resentment and hatred, there will be no end. This saddens me, because I have a great respect and appreciation of the US, and also because it reflects poorly on Britian.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

PII,

“That’s just my opinion though and it doesn’t matter….”

Of course your opinion matters, that’s what forums are for, to air your opinions. It’s just that sometimes you get a bit carried away because you are passionate about your beliefs, like many of us. It’s a quality to be admired rather than to apologise for.

“Also, when did I say an invasion force wouldn’t be in danger from chemical weapons?”

You didn’t, i’m just making the point that America would be fighting a very different war than the one in 1991.

“However, you’ll find most people in the U.S. military support this cause. Most people in our military are willing to fight for a cause they believe is just.”

Yes, but if their lives are being thrown away needlessly the American public would not stand for it. Look at Vietnam, in the early days there probably was a feeling of it being a ‘just’ war, but from the late 60’s on the majority of troops were fighting only to save each other and reach the magical 365 days.

“We’re hated simply because we stand for freedom. As long as we stand for that, there will be idiots out there who hate us.”

America is not the only country which stands for freedom you know, there are many others. It’s Americas desire to be seen as the defender and policeman of the world which may be inspiring some of the hatred.

“On the other hand, I’m almost ready to just ignore the Middle East completely.”

You may be, but you know this will never become American policy.

“Why don’t we just disconnect all ties with the Middle East completely? Oil you say? Well, the United States actually has quite a large supply of it from various parts of the country. Perhaps doing this will get these psychotic terrorists off our backs, or at least it might help.”

You are never going to do that while there is a substantial Jewish vote up for grabs in any presidential election.

I noticed you have made no response to my comments about Bush’s crass and insensitive speech about the possibility of young American men and women going to war on his behalf. Going to war is a serious matter and not something to be amused about, especially when the nearest you’ll get to the sound of the guns is watching it on tv. Perhaps you agree with me?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

First of all, when I said reason enough for me, I meant that the reasoning to go get Saddam is enough to convince me of the need to remove him from power. I realize that I won’t be in the shoes, or boots, to do that for several more years. Granted though, I would welcome the opportunity to take part in such an operation.

As far as my statement about Europe doing nothing, I wasn’t referring to England. I have great respect for Britain and of all the countries in Western Europe I have the highest amount of respect for Britain. Sorry if I was too general in that other statement. As far as the rest of Europe, they have done some things, but not as much as they should’ve. That’s just my opinion though and it doesn’t matter so I don’t need tree huggers like you know who….jumping down my throat again.

Also, when did I say an invasion force wouldn’t be in danger from chemical weapons? However, you’ll find most people in the U.S. military support this cause. Most people in our military are willing to fight for a cause they believe is just. And I’ve had several members of my family and people I know in it so I know this to be true. Something has to be done about Saddam Hussein there’s no other way to look at it.

And Mongu, I’d say there are enough terrorists that hate the U.S. now. Whether we attack Iraq or not won’t make much of a difference. We’re hated simply because we stand for freedom. As long as we stand for that, there will be idiots out there who hate us.

On the other hand, I’m almost ready to just ignore the Middle East completely. I mean the way I look at it is this. Nobody over there likes the United States except for maybe Kuwait and/or Israel. And even the other nations we have “good” relations with, don’t agree with anything we do or have ever done (regardless of who the president may be at a given time frame). They all want us out of their business. Why don’t we just disconnect all ties with the Middle East completely? Oil you say? Well, the United States actually has quite a large supply of it from various parts of the country. Perhaps doing this will get these psychotic terrorists off our backs, or at least it might help.

The same could be said of parts of Europe….

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi PII,

“Rabie I just laugh when you use the term “we”. As if Europe is actually going to do anything of that nature. If anyone does the invading it will be the United States.”

Obviously no help from Europe, as your sense of history warps and discounts all European involvement. Look at Libya, F111’s flying from Lakenheath, now my geography tells me that Lakenheath is in England. In the Balkans there were forces from European countries involved and US aircraft used European bases. And wasn’t the RAF involved operating from Gioia del Colle? The Gulf? No European involvement there then either. RAF Tornados weren’t lost in action? Tell that to the families of the crews, or the families of the British soldiers killed in an American air strike. How about Afghanistan? Royal Marines were there I believe, and for some time. Throughout all these times other European nations have been involved in some form or other. Medical teams, logistics, NATO command and control aircraft. All played an essential part but are apparently discounted by Americans if we are to believe your opinion.

“And let me assure you, Saddam will be taken out of power… The thing that man has done in the past and what he will do in the
future is enough reason for me to take him out.”

Sorry PII, but you’re not going to take him out, it’s some other poor souls who are going to have to place themselves in harms way. Yes, I know you have honourable intentions, but at least for the next few years it’s not going to be you who comes home in a bodybag.

“Whether we capture him, take him out with a sniper rifle, or take him out with a GBU-12, Saddam Hussein is going out of power.”

Saddam has already used chemical weapons, do you really think he would not use them if there is an invasion? An invading force would not be safe from that kind of attack. History shows that it is extremely likely that veterans now suffering from Gulf War Syndrome have contracted these problems due to the innoculations and medication which it was hoped would protect them. Tht’s before they were exposed to chemical weapons

“I’m sorry you guys don’t like it, but that’s tough.”

If you make a unilateral decision to invade Iraq, perhaps you should expect to carry it out without help. As for ‘us guys’ not liking it that’s fine. I just hope you and your countrymen don’t find yourselves having to go to thousands of funerals.

One final thing, I saw Bush speak the other day about Iraq and I find his condescending nature to be appalling. He smiled all through his speech while he talked about America going to war as though he found it amusing. A man with so much power who finds the prospect of going to war amusing is a frightening prospect for the rest of the world. Still, he won’t have to get his hands dirty, he can always hide like he did on September 11th.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

I’m not convinced. Firstly, there is no moral reason to get Saddam. This means most of the Gulf countries will oppose it. Politically, most Euro countries apart from the 51st State will also oppose it.

The US is taking a very big risk if they invade Iraq again. The prize is…well, what exactly is the prize? The danger is that a whole new generation of “terrorists” could be born out of anger at US actions.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Rabie I just laugh when you use the term “we”. As if Europe is actually going to do anything of that nature. If anyone does the invading it will be the United States. And let me assure you, Saddam will be taken out of power. The thing that man has done in the past and what he will do in the future is enough reason for me to take him out. Whether we capture him, take him out with a sniper rifle, or take him out with a GBU-12, Saddam Hussein is going out of power. I’m sorry you guys don’t like it, but that’s tough.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

it defintely is – eveyone has let numerous states get away with teis reaosn in the past without invading them

if we follow this line we must inavde anyone with these weapons – but so amny countries have NBC weapons that it would be impossible

here is the FAS list of countries with NBC programes :-

United States
Russia / USSR
United Kingdom
France
China
India
Pakistan
Israel
Iran
Iraq
North Korea
Algeria
Chechnya
Cuba
Libya
Serbia
Sudan
Syria
Argentina
Belarus
Brazil
Egypt
Japan
Kazakhstan
South Africa
Taiwan
Romania
Ukraine

are we going to invade all of the aboe ??? (ok some have disposed of thir weapons programs eg southa frica)

rabie :9

RE: Iraqi Invitation

You get the point.

But it all begs the question – what is the justification to attack? The “Iraq has / is building weapons of mass destruction” card is looking a little lightweight as justification goes.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Probably the worst thing that could happen would be that the Kurds rise up in the north while the US is attacking and make their own state. Turkey will not like this as the Kurds also claim a significant piece of Turkey. ( Iran will also not like it but as it is not part of NATO and is part of the Evil Empire then the US could care less).
What could the US do? Let the new Iraqi regime they install crush the Kurds… I think this is more likely than them doing it themselves.
…Wonder if the new Iraqi regime will use chemical weapons on the Kurds this time… I am sure the Turks will provide “AID”.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

if you ever read fredrick forsyth’s “the fist of god” then it explains this predicament very well

basically :-

the conservitive rarab states (gulf co-operation council) – ie the ones with all the oil. they feared iran more than sadam. they wanted protection . it would have been militaryy more practicle to drive stright to bagdad, igonred kuwait and just captured the city and accept iraq’s surrender.

apparently 60% of iraq is the iranian kind of islam (sorry – can’t rember name – sunni or sheite) and are ruled over but the ba’ath aprt that represents the 40% of the other kind of islam (tha smae as the arabs). coupled to this there are the marsh arabs and the kurd – both of whom would like independance (the kurd have defacto independance / autonomy in the north anyway.

anyway the break up of iraq is not favoured by yht gulf staes cos they see iraq as a means of stoppin iran.

syria and turkey don’t wany iraqi kurds getting a state

hence we ahve no bases to sue except carriers in the gulf

therefore i doubt anything will happen

IMHO this is smokescreen for higher defence spending, and an excuss to fly all over iraq doign an air campiagn like the start of the gulf war and like serbia in 99 – it would be politcally unacpetable and militarly difficult to move enough grunts and tanks in to capture iraq on the scale of the invasion of germany in 1945.

even if we did invade we would have to occupy the country and you just have to look at the west bank and gaza to see what would happen to our troop.

IMHO don’t even go there

rabie :9

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Can I just clarify this – the U.N mandate was to free Kuwait from Iraqi occupation. The wasn’t then and the isn’t now a mandate to either invade Iraq or indeed remove Saddam from power. I know people
who were involved in the attack’s against Saddam’s forces and it’s not a clean or indeed pleasant task.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

I’m a little uncomfortable with the consequences of ousting Saddam:-

Iraq would quickly fragment because of the power vacuum.

Southern Iraq would go for self determination – a nation of Marsh Arabs, who have no idea how to run a country.

Eastern Iraq would take advantage of religious similarities with Iran and try to join up.

Northern Iraq and other bits would fall apart – some areas would go for independende, some would befriend the Turks, some would resent this and attack the Turk-friends…

The Turks might let the Tigris flow again for certain of the tribes but not for others…

Basically the complete disintegration of stability is a possibility. What’s preferable – oppressive stability or anarchy??

The US usually favours oppressive stability in the majority of cases.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

I can’t answer all those quesitons Kev, but I do know that he cannot be allowed to stay in power. I can honestly say I don’t care what other countries don’t like it. Something has to be done regardless. I would be willing to go over there myself if I were in that position. I’m already obligated to college and an AFROTC commitment though so it will be a while yet if I am to get a chance to go there.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi,

“We should have dealt with him at that time, that would only costed a couple of days now it’s going to cost months to do it.”

A couple of days, yes, but how many lives? And how many lives will it cost if Bush decides to carry out an all out invasion? What happens after? Will America need to keep a standing army in Iraq? Who decides who will take over? And by what right? (Answers on a postcard to the Whitehouse.)

And finally, how will the American people regard the return of a few thousand of their troops in bodybags?

Maybe they should have finished the job in 1991.

Regards,

kev35