Iraqi Invitation

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Mongu- Your comments are almost comical! Would you please listen to yourself…..

>Yes, he is a horrible person who has murdered 100,000’s of people.
>But, so have other leaders. (evidently no one in that 100,000 was a member of your family)

So, let me get this straight. It is ok for SH to murder hundred of thousands of people as long as other leaders do it? I can’t believe you….

Now surely I don’t disagree that they’re other leaders that deserve to be punished or bombed or whatever. That said your talking over decades with many different US presidents. Are you throwing Joseph Stalin in with SH? See you and your allies are losing the argument with many Americans. Most of these issues are very compicated and happened many years ago! That said I am not excusing the US for its mistakes. It has made plenty but, the same could be said for every other country on this planet!!! Name one that hasn’t made its fair share of mistakes? Many of you on the forum are talking down America. If, you don’t agree with a American policy fine. Express your views and we would be happy to debate you on any issue. If, we believe your views to be just. We would be just as happy to express them to our Goverment and their leaders!(anyone who knows America knows we protest much and often) As a interested party I follow the news and read much. That said I know about 10% of the true facts! How much do you know? Maybe your smarter than me. Lets say 20%! When was the last time you had a defense briefing? How about the last time you took a tour of the Middle East? Sounds like many of you here should look alittle inward! Many other people and countries agree with US policy yet, I don’t see you or your friends attacking them???? A couple more points I would like to throw in. First the Falklands the US gave the UK much support during the War. (i.e. inteligence, Weapons, etc.) Just as a younger brother doesn’t want his older brother to fight his battles nor did the UK want the US to fight there war with Argentina. The UK has a first rate military and was more than capable of handling the situation. To say any different is a insult to that fine country! (and mine) Secondly, I would like to comment about another members remarks about the US entering WWII. As with many of these issue they are more compicated than some members would like us to believe. First look at America in 1938-1941! The US just got out of a great depression were many lost everything they had. Remember the US wasn’t a great military power that it is today. Many American’s wondered that another war was just not there business. (don’t forget the US came to there European Allies aid just 20 years before)Yet, many did support the Western Europeans. (UK, FRANCE, POLAND, ETC.) Most American leaders thought war with Germany was inevitable and was only a matter of time. That said they also believed that the US was in no way prepared for war either. That our best hope was to keep out of the war for as long as possible and supply them with war materials. (i.e. ships, planes, and tanks to name a few)For the US to enter the war earlier would have been a big mistake for the allies. Remember the the US was suppling large amounts of military aid. The Germans knew it but, were unsure that attacking the US mite make the war harder for them to win. Look at the shipping losses that the allies suffered at the hands of the U-boats! Up until the time Germany declared war on the US they left our shipping mostly alone! There by getting desperately needed materials. This gave both sides valuable time. Firstly the Allies received supplies to hold on and the US got time to get production up and design many of the tools needed to help win the war. At Pearl Harbor we had WWI battleships and P-36’s and P-40’s fighters. Germany had Bismarck class battleships and Me109’s! (Japan had bigger still Ships and Carriers and Zero Fighters) Maybe you should take a History class now and then………you mite be surprised what you learn?

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Why doesn`t the US pay attention to the leaders of Sierra Leone, Rwanda etc and call them evil? They are not better than SH.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-08-02 AT 10:56 PM (GMT)]I still don’t see the drama.

Lots of countries have WMD. Lots of them are headed by regimes which are as likely to attack the US as Iraq is. Take Pakistan…take unstable elements in the FSU.

So what if Iraqis are not free? It’s unfortunate, but it has nothing to do with the US. Again, billions of people are ruled by despotic regimes. The other ones are OK, are they???

So why focus on Iraq?

Also, the US has no – no – international support and approval for this. That’s vital, because no country should take unilatral military action unless directly attacked. It’s a kind of code that civilised nations stick too. The US is civilised, don’t get me wrong. But just not in this instance. The US has never supported its “allies” when they have had to fight (eg Falklands). Why exactly, do they expect help in their own wars in return??

Also, there is a perception that action against Iraq will lead to action against Iran. Apart from the US, every one else is starting to accept and even like Iran.

Read this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020817/ap_on_re_eu/…

RE: Iraqi Invitation

if he is so evil, and so going to use WMDs then

a) what about fidel, kimjung il ,jiang zimen, etc
b) what about north korea – they have WMDs and could use them

IMHO i know, you know, the us gov know, hey everyone knows – its not for an “silly” humaniteran reason or the goodness of americas heart that the now want to go into iraq.

america has got the time, motive and opertunity to do it now. back in 1991 they didnt and now with all this ball ##### “war on terror” tey have carte blanch to attack anyone they please

Rabie :9

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi Scooter,

“Especially, when many of there own fathers and grand fathers fought and died fighting these very same kinds of people! As far as I am concern they are desecrating their lives and what they stood for……….you may not like the words but, they hold special meaning to many.”

Perhaps you didn’t realise at school that these people fought and died to give us the freedom to be able to question decisions, to state our opinions freely, or perhaps that freedom only applies to the United States? As for desecrating lives and what they stood for, well, I can’t believe you are so insensitive that you could say that. America does not hold a monopoly on rememberance.

“”your either with them or your with us!” I am on the side of a free democratic Iraq with rights for all…………..what are you on the side of?”

Ah, yes. On the side of a free democratic Iraq with rights for all. Just like after the Gulf war when America encouraged the marsh Arabs to rise, offered them help…. And then sat back while they were slaughtered in their thousands. With friends like that who needs enemies?

“They said the same about Hitler in 1938!!!! How many millions of peoeple died in that war!”

So, America regarded Hitler as a threat to Europe in 1938. Can I just thank you now for the speed with which America came to the aid of Europe. December, 1941? Around the 7th? A mere two years, three months and four days after Britain’s entry into the war? You Americans like to kid yourselves that you saved Europe in the second world war. If it weren’t for Britain, the Commonwealth and the Dominions there wouldn’t have been a Europe to save.

The world would probably be a better and safer place without Saddam Hussein, but surely, a country with the armed forces, the technology, the financial wherewithal and the will to oust Hussein could do it without resorting to invasion and the loss of thousands of lives.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-08-02 AT 09:09 PM (GMT)]”Evil” is an ambiguous word at best. I don’t consider that it fully describes SH. Yes, he is a horrible person who has murdered 100,000’s of people.

But so have other leaders.

Why is the US targeting SH but ignoring other people of similar calibre?

Also, invasion of another country is no reason to start a war, as in the Gulf. I didn’t see any F-14’s coming to the resuce in the Falklands. I mean, if the US were correct to stay out of it then, they must be wrong to invade Iraq in Desert Storm. Oh, I get it. They didn’t find oil in Falklands waters until after the war. Silly me.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

So, SH is not a evil man? Also, even if Kuwait wasn’t so innocent does that give Iraq the the right to invade, pillage, murder, and rape the citizens of that small country! Well, you and others try so hard to twist ever little fact around to your advantage. You often forget the poor people that have to live under his control. Your arguments have little basis in fact thought. You only have to look back to WWII to find a similar problem. I guess the Allies (US, UK, Canada, Poland, Free French, etc.) shouldn’t have bombed and invaded France to throw out the Nazi’s from that great country! I find it so ironic to hear comments defending dictators like SH. Especially, when many of there own fathers and grand fathers fought and died fighting these very same kinds of people! As far as I am concern they are desecrating their lives and what they stood for……….you may not like the words but, they hold special meaning to many. “your either with them or your with us!” I am on the side of a free democratic Iraq with rights for all…………..what are you on the side of? Sounds like more of the same! Leave SH and Iraq alone and everything will be fine…..sure it will. They said the same about Hitler in 1938!!!! How many millions of peoeple died in that war! No one ever learns from History………..to bad!

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Can we please stup using the word evil, I hope not everyone here has the same level of stupidity as Bush himself.

BTW, Saddam retalliated in 1991 because Kuwait shut off the oil supplies to the sea for Iraq and was pumping Iraqi oil out of the ground. So kuweit is not that innocent, and the regime is as corrupt and fraudalant as Iraq. America has no allies (nor the EU nor the Arab world) and it knows it can not sell their wars aymore. Let`s see how Bush`s reaction will be …

RE: Iraqi Invitation

I think it wouldn’t surprise anyone on this forum to say that I have to side with the American and/or President Bush’s point of view. That said I would surely like to find another way to get rid of SH without the loss of life. (American or Iraqi) I think we all agree that SH is a evil man that has attacked his neighbors and gased his own people! He is a dictator in the same likeness as Adolf Hilter. I think the real question here for both sides is how to get rid of him! The Americans feel if he is left alone he will kill more of his own people and is a serious threat to the rest of the world. God help us if he ever gets WMD! You may or may not believe that. Thought, his record clearly show’s that to be true! He has attacked Iran, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia and killed hundreds of thousand of people! Dumped millions of gallons of oil in the Middle East environment. I surely wouldn’t want my life in his hands. I don’t believe that the Iraqi people do either. The world would be a much better place without him. Do I need to go on? If, the rest of the world would get behind the Americans his own Generals would more than likely take care of the problem for us! Your comments are only aiding him and hurting the Iraqi peoples quest for freedom from a ruthless dictator! So, as Bush says which side are you on. Ours or SH? If, you were a Iraqi would you want to live in a free democratic Iraq without SH or a dictatorship with him? We all know the answer to that. So, what side are you really on? Sounds like some people care more about putting down America than they do about the poor people they claim to defend! Just one last point. What would have happen if the world united against Hitler in 1938? We all know what happen when the didn’t…………the next Hitler may have a atomic bomb! Would you want to chance it?

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi, Vortex.

“As to 3 days later, what the hell are you talking about?”

I am referring to the fact that President Bush did not visit either New York or Washington sooner than he did. If he’d gone to ‘ground zero’ on the evening of the 11th, like so many ordinary American citizens did, I think that would have had much more impact, and been far more effective as a method of showing the terrorists that America was far from beaten. Maybe I’m different to you, but I’d want my leaders to share the dangers with me. The people who sent those terrorists were probably overjoyed by the ‘success’ of their operation, but probably even more overjoyed that America appeared ‘leaderless’ for the next few days.

“What people are suggesting here in the US is that we only received video tapes of media contact. At all times a selected few of the media with the President and various video clips made by the media were consistently released to assure the American public. You weren’t here so you’ll have to take my word for it.”

Exactly, he should have been there. Imagine the feelings he would have engendered had he spent an hour in a bucket line at the WTC. He would have been President for life! What could be more reassuring than that in times of crisis the President stood shoulder to shoulder with his people?

“Don’t let your prejudice blind you.”

Blind me to what? The apparent inadequacies of a President whose term of office has, so far, in my opinion, been far below that which the American people deserve.

As to being there, no, I wasn’t. But like 95% of the Worlds population I watched those events unfold with abject horror. For this current generation these events were a defining moment. No-one will forget where they where or what they were doing when they first heard news of this. (I was in a shop looking up at what I thought was a disaster film until I saw the BBC news titles.) There were people of many nationalities killed, not just Americans and the repercussions of these events will live on for many years. Is sending thousands more Americans to Iraq to be killed really going to alter the situation?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Hi, Garry,

you’re preaching to the converted. I think taht last post should have been aimed at Vortex?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-08-02 AT 04:56 AM (GMT)]”I am not saying Garry, Bush is an evil man. “

Kev, I wasn’t suggesting he was evil… just that perhaps he is acting more on rage than common sense. It is not a new development… the US treatment of North Korea and Cuba show they tend to base a lot of foreign policy on this emotion.

“Not even the US administration has stablished any link between the 11th Sept events and the Iraq regime. “

If they were going for links to 11/9 then the Saudis had better start building bomb shelters. Their way of avoiding this action was to have a jelly like spine and the conscience and morals of a lawyer and bend when the US said bend. It seems with this new development SH has learned this too. The question is “is it too little too late” to stop the US going in alone. Is it enough to make sure any force that goes in is only US based rather than a large coalition. and what neighbouring countries will help the US.
If these questions can be answered then we get to more sticky questions like how are the US troops going to avoid Combat in Urban areas, what sort of support will they get from the local people etc etc.

“yes, Garry, in Somalia’s case it’s a group of very uneducated people making such a decision. Of course they pick identity pride over all else. “

Why do you think that?
If UN troops took over Texas while GW Bush was in charge and took him and his fellow officials away because they were violating human rights through the use of the death penalty do you really think only uneducated Texans would stand up for their local government?
(I think you know my views on the DP and can therefore guess that if I was a texan I’d be first in line to bag me a UN stormtrooper.)

I agree with the fact that the creation of a stable government in that country would turn what is now the wild west into a much better country to live in but if US citizens wouldn’t accept an outside force coming in and making such changes why is it that those Somalis who do exactly the same thing that most Americans would do in the same situation are branded by you as uneducated?
Is uneducated the same as being stupid?
Is education really all just about thinking the US can go anywhere and do anything?
I guess those in Europe that allowed the powerful German forces come into their country and create pro nazi governments must have been genius’s in that case. Of course we know they weren’t genius’s… nor were they stupid… they just had two choices… one die resisting or live and fight another day. The Somalis chose to fight.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

I was referring it to the American history, not others. It is consistently used to insinuate American politics, but i believe at all recent times somekind of abrupt war involvment actually harmed the US leaderships’ careers. As to 3 days later, what the hell are you talking about? What people are suggesting here in the US is that we only received video tapes of media contact. At all times a selected few of the media with the President and various video clips made by the media were consistently released to assure the American public. You weren’t here so you’ll have to take my word for it. Don’t let your prejudice blind you. If you want to criticize, then the only somewhat reasonable criticism was made by some that he didn’t return directly to the White House. That’s true, he went to Nebraska or some undisclosed base at the time. All this cowering stuff was made up in the imagination of others.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-08-02 AT 00:21 AM (GMT)]Hi, Mongu,

“Conversely, Galtieri invaded the Falklands to boost his popularity Kev.”

Good point.

“But the Royals were only figure heads there for moral purposes.”

At the time, I think the Royals were much more significant in the life of the country than they are now. When France capitulated in 1940, the King said “Thank God, we’re on our own now” and the Queen Mother following the bombing of Buckingham Palace said “We can look the people of the east end in the face now.” These two statements had a significant effect on the morale of the country. Churchill also remained in the country and suffered the same risks from bombing as other Londoners.

“Bush is an actual leader.”

Really?

“Although, the degree of fanfare all saying “the President is irreplacable” is a bit funny. If he chooses his cabinet correctly, the country should cope in his absence.”

My point exactly. Yes, he is there to run the country, but in times of crisis he is there to lead, and if that means placing himself in harm’s way so be it. If he’d gone to New York or Washington on September 11th instead of being ‘unavailable’ till the 14th, he would have been seen as a true leader by the outside world. Hugging a fireman three days later does not do justice to the bravery and heroism of the American people. I’m not saying Bush is a coward, he has taken a firm stance since, maybe too firm over Iraq, but I definitely think his absence from one or other of the sites of the terrorist attacks in the immediate aftermath, was, at the very least, ill advised.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-08-02 AT 11:55 PM (GMT)]”i can’t recall any wars were created in recent history just to do this.”

Some people might suggest that in 1982 Margaret Thatcher’s Conservative Government would not have won the next election had it not been for the victory in the Falkland Islands.”

> Conversely, Galtieri invaded the Falklands to boost his popularity Kev.

“During WWII, the Royal Family of Great Britain refused to move to the safety of Canada expressly so that they may share the dangers with their people, a standpoint which did much to raise the morale of the people”

> True. But the Royals were only figure heads there for moral purposes. Bush is an actual leader. Although, the degree of fanfare all saying “the President is irreplacable” is a bit funny. If he chooses his cabinet correctly, the country should cope in his absence. I think the Air Force 1 escapade was a big overreaction which would cause acute embarrassment to any leader outside the US. Hard to say what Bush would have done if he found himself in London during the Blitz – cower under a table? -be killed by laser guided pretzel?

RE: Iraqi Invitation

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-08-02 AT 10:35 PM (GMT)]Hi, Vortex,

“As for someone’s constant mentioning of Bush hiding in air force 1, i think you’ve been watching too much movies.”

I think that’s me you’re referring to. On September 11th, a terrible tragedy hit the United States, no-one can deny that. In all the chaos the American people rallied together, but they did not rally under President Bush, instead it was Rudy Giuliani. He was the constant, the constant the American people needed, but, it should have been the President.

“When the US command doens’t have a clue of what’s going on, it’s a very prudent thing to protect the President at all cost and possiblities. If he was killed, i’m not sure what might happen in the following hours.”

No, the prudent thing is to provide the people with the leadership and reassurance they need. No, that should be the leadership and reassurance they deserve. I’m sorry, but I firmly believe that if you put yourself in a position to be a leader of a nation you should then be prepared to face whatever dangers arise with your people. I’m sure there are contingencies for the vice president and other prominent government officials to be moved to a place of safety in case anything should happen to the President. Now, before you mention that I am a European and have no idea about all this, there is in fact, a precedent. During WWII, the Royal Family of Great Britain refused to move to the safety of Canada expressly so that they may share the dangers with their people, a standpoint which did much to raise the morale of the people.

“As to wanting explainations of him smilling when talking about war with Iraq, so what do you want him to show, a sad face, a stern face?”

Yes I do. The prospect of sending young men and women to fight and probably to die at his bidding should make him very serious indeed. This is not a joke, people are going to die. To me this is just another example of the disrespect he has shown to the American people in the last few months.

“Politics is all a show and any face he puts out is going to be analysed from all angles.”

Exactly.

“i can’t recall any wars were created in recent history just to do this.”

Some people might suggest that in 1982 Margaret Thatcher’s Conservative Government would not have won the next election had it not been for the victory in the Falkland Islands.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Iraqi Invitation

yes, Garry, in Somalia’s case it’s a group of very uneducated people making such a decision. Of course they pick identity pride over all else. Because they don’t know better. Then, you have a group of more educated people like in Afghanistan, who understands that they can accomplish their interests at the same time the US is accomplishing ours. Look at Somalia now, they can keep their pride if that’s what they want, and if that’s what you want to show the US off. But, mind you many people there dies each day and you sure fell great. They don’t have to agree with the US, but they sure can make the most out of it. As to Iraq, they are rather educated and nothing close to the mentality of Somalia. As for someone’s constant mentioning of Bush hiding in air force 1, i think you’ve been watching too much movies. When the US command doens’t have a clue of what’s going on, it’s a very prudent thing to protect the President at all cost and possiblities. If he was killed, i’m not sure what might happen in the following hours. You see, there are still many operatives in this country and it’s not unlikely to have contingencies when the terrorists see the President was killed. You might suddenly have a few thousand going around killing people just to create chaos and confusion, which might becomes an unstoppable momentum for days, months. As to wanting explainations of him smilling when talking about war with Iraq, so what do you want him to show, a sad face, a stern face? Politics is all a show and any face he puts out is going to be analysed from all angles. But, what i do know is that this “war” is not going to happen this year and so far it’s just to pressure Saddam, which has worked rather well recently. Another reason it won’t be this year is so rather devious people won’t capitalize on it and call it “wag the dog” because it’s not. That was a stupid movie anyways, i can’t recall any wars were created in recent history just to do this. In fact history has shown it to be rather detrimental, how ironic.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

I am not saying Garry, Bush is an evil man. Sometimes good intentions can be spoilt in the way of achieving them. I am sure most people in Iraq thinks their leader is right and even Saddam himself thinks he´s a good man. Not even the US administration has stablished any link between the 11th Sept events and the Iraq regime. So we can´t mix things. If any conection were stablished, I would be in favour of an intervention under the UN command.

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Maybe they’ll send over an exploding cigar as a peace offering!

RE: Iraqi Invitation

Regarding the invasion of Iraq to kill SH… reminds me of another US action to capture some officials… in Somalia… the local civies voted with their feet (or should I say Kalashnikovs) when given the choice between a local supposedly brutal warlord or the US troops… wonder what choices the Iraqi people will make.