Nick_76Dude
If PAF went to the effort to integrate Grifo, AIM-9L and western avionics and RWR on its entire F-7 fleet which has proven very successful. You are now saying we just will not bother doing this with the next fighter that will be our mainstay? Your assumptions fly in the face of facts and past experiance.
Yawn..
The RWRs on your Mirages are Chinese and were installed with help from Chinese OEMs. Installing a WVR missile is not such a big deal either. All in all, just because Pakistan did something earlier because Chinese goods at the time were junk and it was allowed to do so does not mean that its the same deal now.
Which BVR AAM will you integrate with your western radar BTW? Do you think the Chinese will just hand over their SD-10s for integration with Grifos? Or have FIAR technical personnel look into its details?
Fact is that a radar is useless without a munition to go along with it. And in your case, the options are limited. Unless of course you are now claiming that the PAF can afford and has access to Mica’s and RC-400’s which of course, begs the simple question- “why couldnt you do it earlier”? Its a SD-10 and Chinese radar, get used to it.
Pakistan has had 20 odd years experiance modifying Chinese aircraft with western missiles and avionics. Are you naware of this?
Pakistan is yet to integrate a single western radar with a BVR AAM. Period. It has little to no ability in terms of designing and fielding its own Radars or EW equipment bar license assembling Chinese RWRs and Grifo radars for its earlier F-7s. These are not likely to give it any great capabilities in this field either. In its immediate neighbourhood itself, there are three AF’s with far greater achievements to their credit, so I dont think your example is particularly noteworthy or even relevant.
I can post numerous sources proving that JF-17s avionics fit is still being selected amongst WESTERN firms.
I see. Every Chinese report worth its name is tomtomming its achievement (and they designed and built the plane) and you are stuck on “western”, because it makes the JF-17 more modern. Be more realistic, will you?
“all reports indicate that instead a Chinese fit has been chosen”
Thats completey incorrect. You are know just speculating and perhaps even hoping this will be the case. For the initial 16 yes, but thats it.
Why? Because you want it to be so? Because western is some gee-whiz and fancy? I hope the PAF, for its sake, is more rational and looks towards the whole package including weaponry, not just whats fancy on paper.
As of July 2006, ACM of PAF indictaed a contract for flight refuelers has been signed.
Cite the same.
Yes, both sides will use ECM jammers. Pakistan has both US and Eurpean jammers in service.
Please provide the designations and proof of the same. No its secret so I cant talk about it type stuff please. And no ancient jammers for the original F-16s either.
Bottom line. A JF-17 equipped with either AMRAAM or SD-10 will be enough to counter INs upcoming assets. Be they Sea Harriers of MIG-29s.
AMRAAM on a JF-17 – cows will jump over the moon before that. JF-17 with SD-10 facing a MiG-29 is debatable at best.
Indian Naval aviation will not have any major leap of tech over PAF. We have not even started talking about the Block 52s and J-10s wich may be dispatched as back up for the JF-17s.
Anyone who can see the specs between the two can come to the obvious conclusion. I mean, here even your top of the line F-16s are neutered, without proper EW, what talk of including them!
Additionally IN fighters can expect havoc on the EW spectrum from Falcon 20 EW aircraft, Erieyes and P-3Cs. I doubt IAF can spare one of its 3 Phalcon AEW aircraft for the Indian Navy and the Ka AEW choppers simply dont have the range. With 6-7 Erieyes on order, a couple can be spared for over water use for PAF/PN.
Ah. And all these Falcon 20’s and Erieyes will be left as is by the IAF ..! And of course, any details on whats inside the Falcon 20’s is best left to ones imagination..as usual.
Nick_76JF-17s will have inflight refueling, so range may not be an issue. Additionally most scenarios will be the IN knocking on Pakistans door, not vice versa. So The range situation is more relevent to the Harrier and MIG-29s. Not the JF-17s.
The range situation is relevant as the PAF does not have IFR yet. Anyways, even the IN SHars and MiG-29s are being plumbed for IFR, this forum had pictures of SHars getting refuelled inflight as well. That apart, the mission profiles need to be watched out for. The IN K’s unless flying strike – are basically going to be flying CAP, as compared to strikers who will have to get through an IN flotillas layered defences. To reduce detection, low flying is a must, that too impacts range.
Anyways the range issue has both pros and cons for it and muddles the topic, so lets drop it. It all depends on where the IN fleet is, and since we dont know that, this is stabbing in the dark.
PAF has stated a “Western” avionics and weapons fit in its JF-17s. Initail prototypes may well have Chinese avioncis however.
This is pretty doubtful and such an approach would fly in the face of common sense and logistics and fiscal prudence. That is, spend tons on all the integration and debugging of 1) but ditch it for 2) later. If the PAF was indeed getting a western avionics fit – it would have fitted it out by now and would be checking it. But all reports indicate that instead a Chinese fit has been chosen and is being procured.
BVR may be AMRAAM or latest blocks of the SD-10. Howver, both will comfortably outrange Derby. About their ECM I am unsure.
As mentioned earlier, the chances of AMRAAM going on a Chinese jet are infitesimal. SD-10 is a much much better bet. About range – against SHars Derby, yes- against R-77s its a closer comparison, and in both cases, ECM comes into play, and here, a DRFM equipped modern Elta jammer is what might and well make the difference, rather than pure range, which is often misleading & depends on target profile, height, closing vs headon and a host of other data.
It all depends on US attitudes. If they will let PAF integrate AMRAAM. Then it will be relatively easy to get a high spec US or Eurpean radar and do this. After all, it was possible on the RN SHARs.
Please see how sensitive they are over the F-16s and then it will be quite clear that its not possible for the JF-17s. With all due respect, Pak is not in the same boat as the UK either, when it comes to tech access.
Of course we have to factor in IAF atention on Maroor and Gwadar. Thats a privilage I am sure the IAF will not deny us.
They most definitely wont.
Nick_76You can look up stats for the Magic 2 and AIM-9L/M. They are certainly not classidfied and I never claimed they were. The sidewinder has greater range and manourverability, and better ECCM ability. In fact I think Magic 2 production may have ended. You can count Magic 2 users on one hand. All of NATO use the AIM-9L/M
Please post these stats with your analysis of the same. Much appreciated.
You are currently unaware of the exact weapons and avionics fit of the JF-17. I would say its very conficent of you to make a sweeping statement that the MIG-29K will better it. You simply cannot look into the future. If a decent western radar and AMRAAMs are placed in it.Then I think it will be more then enough for the Sea Harrier and the MIG-29Ks.
The chance of an AMRAAM being integrated onto the JF-17 is slightly better than a cow jumping over the moon. The US has gone to extraordinary lengths to safeguard its IPR on its F16s and you’d think they’d integrate an AMRAAM onto a Chinese made aircraft? I would wager not.
Per all accounts, its receiving a KLJ series Chinese radar with a Chinese munitions kit being the most suitable fit for the same. And the Mig29K sensors plus munitions package is definitely far more comprehensive.
I am also aware of the general weapons specifications of the JF-17- some were posted on this very forum. Whilst a decent replacement for the increasingly long in the tooth Mirage series, the JF-17 is definitely not regarded as a grade A fighter by any serious commentator. Its basically a tier 2 unit, intended for bulking up the PAF.
However, with the SD-10 & KLJ radar, the JF-17 could present a threat to the SHar, but I’d wager on effective ECM (Elta SPJ/ Tarang RHAWS) + Elta 2032 + Derby as a better bet, but this is a closer call than the 29K. But what must be also factored in is that the JF-17s will be flying in to strike, escort the LRMPs and depending on how far the IN flotilla is, they could be operating at the end of their endurance and it could get tricky.
Lastly, in any future conflict, the impact of the IAF on any PAF operations out of Masroor needs to be factored in as well.
Nick_76One thing to remember about the Saud family is that they’re intimately linked with Abdul Wahhab, founder of Wahhabism. He was invited to become the family imam of the then Saudi sheikh about 1750, & then one of his children married one of the sheikhs. The Saud family count him as one of their ancestors. So they’re pretty unlikely to repudiate Wahhabism, & if any of them do have religious doubts, they either have to keep quiet about them or get out – which means being cut off from the family money.
Swerve, not to get further into politics, but I doubt whether they have any religious doubts. I’d just think they are hedonistic hypocrites who are fairly fanatical about wahabbism as long as they themselves dont have to subject to its more puritan aspects. Fanaticism and hypocrisy go hand in hand- just take a look at the leaders of some of the jihadi orgs based out of Pak, like Laskar e Toiba- the leaders roll around in Armoured SUVs, rake in the money whilst talking of the need to fight a holy war to their foot soldiers. In that sense, at least OBL is an exception, he’s roughing it. The rest of the fatcat Sauds visit the Riviera, eat caviar, visit the fleshpots of Lebanon (used to), whilst donating millions to spread fundamentalist religion, and assuming that buys their ticket into heaven.
Nick_76No I’m Not!
Just quoting three recognised independent magazines, they are British but I have found them acceptable in their reporting – much better then web trawling.
I dont think any of those mags are stuck repeating that the Rafale is underpowered. The recent AFMs in fact praise the Rafale. So at the very least your data is out of date, or you have to make an arguement citing the reason why the Rafale is underpowered. Just saying its underpowered “AIR Int. says so” is not good enough.
If some French mag says that the EF is a tub of lard and then Foofone repeats the same, would you accept it without demur?
Nick_76PAF paid full wack for its AIM-9Ls. Many in PAF were unhappy with the Magic 2. So much so that we modified the Mirages so that they could fire the Aim-9L instead. Its all aspect ability and range are considered better.
PAF is paying the US out of money it receives as aid/ support for its help against OBL…thats hardly “full wack”. If we use the same logic Israel “buys” American arms.
I would appreciate some figures to back your data about “all aspet ability and range are considered better” rather than the usual its classified I dont know..
As well as Block 52s PAF will also be fielding the latest version of the J-10 and JF-17. What avionics and missiles these birds will finally have is still up in the air, so far to early for anyone to say “so so aircraft is better”.
I think the present figures speak for themselves. The IN MiG-29Ks have the latest variant of the Zhuk-ME with an excellent range & processing ability, an upgraded IRST, dual Sea Wasp engines, a quad FBW, fibreoptics databus, high bandwidth datalink, state of the art EW suite, RCS reduction and a TopSight HMD system. Their weapons suite includes AAMs, AShMs, PGMs and ARMs. This entire range of sensors options AND munitions is simply unavailable to either type you are quoting, not to mention that in terms of overall design and sophistication the 29 K development is well regarded. So its hardly far too early.
Chances are 2 squadrons of JF-17s will form air defence over the sea for PAF in the future.
The J-10 might be a decent opponent for the MiG-29K in some respects. The JF-17 is a poor comparator.
Nick_76I didnt mean the “present Sea Harrier” but the upgraded ones, which with BVR will definitely be superior to the bulk of the most likely opponent. Read the whole paragraph, with “and finally these planes will be getting..”
The PAF is reliant on Aim-9’s because its getting them free from the US. If France were to dole out Magic-2’s, I dont think the PAF would look a gift horse in the mouth.
There is no point in bringing in the MiG-29s as they will be qualitatively far superior to anything in the PAF inventory, bar probably the F-16 Block 52’s but without the added problem of a downgraded EW suite & with the added advantage of RCS reduction, something which the PAF is unlikely to get for its Vipers (since even Singapore didnt get it).
Nick_76Unless we know whats inside the boat, newer tech is just plain generics.If for logistics concerns the PN does the reasonable thing and goes for similar equipment as on its earlier boats, the differences could be a matter of semantics.
Even in the case of the Scorpene and Agosta-90B the same thing would have held, only that due to a combination of factors the Indians held off so much time, that they in effect negotiated after sufficient time had elapsed for a more modern sensor suite to be developed and delivered.
But at the end of the day, these differences are just for debate. Submarines dont fight submarines. What matters is ASuW capability, and here while the PN has reasonable LRMP assets, its surface fleet just doesnt shape up.
Nick_76Nick can you post any sources for the hdw offer in the IN thread? due to the co-prod nature of brahmos dont think the Ru can prevent IN from sticking it inside a HDW since we manufacture the launch tube system also and underwater launch tech for vl-brahmos is being worked on/developed for the atv. but they will try and put obstacles.
Ok, will do
India did sign an agreement for ‘protection of intellectual rights’. As long as all the integration would be done in India by Indians and/or russians, they shouldn’t have much of a problem.
Ya, but a humpback on a U series boat will sure look ugly. 😮
Nick_76Then it might not be superior to the Scorpene after all.
Nick_76The IN SHars are receiving new Elta 2032 M radars and Derby AAMs, new MCs, new RWRs and new ECM equipment. These give it an edge vs the PAF assets at Masroor.
The Magic 2 is quite competitive vs the Aim-9 versions operated by the PAF. The Sea Harriers small size is a further plus for it in terms of RCS vs detection.
Nick_76Well in terms of combat capability and sophistication, these planes beat the bulk of the most likely opponent, Pakistan, in several respects, and finally the Sea Harrier will get something that makes it suitable for its originally intended role. With a Blue Fox radar and just Magics, it was in some ways a disappointment for the IN since the Blue Fox had issues with sea clutter, for which the IN could not find a technical solution, and had to use training and tactics to compensate. The Blue Vixen for a variety of reasons was not available to India. Hopefully India will install a full specced Elta 2032 in the SHar since it is after all an interceptor with secondary Air to surface capability. These will be complemented by the highly capable MiG-29 Ks which was being discussed in the other thread, with IRST, Fibre optics databuses, new radar and other stuff like RCS reduction, that plane is also a deadly addition.
But hopefully the IN will purchase the E2C APS-145 equipped variant. Its performance specs are impressive, and if they can accomodate it on the Gorshkov or IAC, it would be the perfect solution.
In other news, India is also searching for a new A2S missile (light) intended for its SeaKings, probably to replace its Sea Eagle, so ultimately, that could be carried by its SHars as well.
Nick_76Thanks, but not only that. Pro-Western is one thing, but ordinary Saudis often complain about members of Saud family being in fact atheists. Their thinking is secular, not religious.
Thats wrong Flex. Saudi rulers are hypcorites AND religious fanatics. Those two go hand in hand at many times. They are not atheists. The common saudis can bitch about their hypocrisy but they are still fanatics hell bent on exporting salafism everywhere.
It wouldn’t be the first time that a secular ruler is pushing law based on Quoran. Ayatollah Khomeini was another example of an atheist with high religious rank (Ayatollahs cannot be legally executed even in case of treason)..
You are mistaken, Khomeini was a raging bigot and a hard core shia.
Nick_76Its been reported in AFM, Flight International and Air International that the M88 is underpowered – take it up with them.
All three are British & a slight bias needs to be accounted for. You are just brochure commenting just as Foofone is doing.
As for the other point I was stating a fact not an opinion! The EJ200 has an excellent power to weight ratio!
Yes, thats one of the key positives nodoubt.
Nick_76guess Armaris has pencilled itself out from contributing to the 2nd line of IN SSK. I think HDW is a strong contender to supply lot technology there eps the Siemens PEM fuel-cell kits.
HWD are offering to integrate Brahmos and the Russians will play hardball by being a pain (for Amur). Also, the exocet wont be available, so the lack of a proper Cruise missile is the biggest weakness in any German offer.
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