Thankyou tphuang. I find it very sad that some people are so incapable of having a sensible debate that they resort to listing spelling mistakes. I will outline my points one last time.

1) The CAG report, quoted in AFM, and at the following websites,

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=386128

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1812883&C=asiapac

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060520/asp/nation/story_6247042.asp

If you can provide any article or source whatsoever countering the comments in these articles or denying the existance of the CAG report then I will consider them. In the mean time it is apparent that the mass of sources appears to support the existance of the CAG report and the fact that it was highly critical of the MKI programme.

Please reread what I wrote.

anyone with access to google and the internet can accomplish what you claim to provide…and given how the internet is one echo chamber..having a bunch of newspaper reports…still does not equate to the original…a basic fact which twist and turn as you might, you seem unable to grasp.

I really dont like repeating myself, but since you dont have any report- YET- since it has not been put online, your categorical comments based on some newspapers, which have mucked around with the same CAG reports in the past, are not worth the bytes they consume.

2) Where you got the idea from that I had claimed that India was refused I do not know. My comment was clear enough and knowbody else appears to have suffered from the kind of confusion that you have. It may well be that in your haste to launch a personal attack you simply read what you wanted to read. I never claimed that the IAF had been refused the JSF.

Thank you for your piety and attempt to play a martyr. It would perhaps be more bearable if you didnt jump around with “you are pathetic” etc etc & assorted attacks on those who dare to question your assertions being categorical …

3) Mig, is desperate for the MRCA deal, not only is it a massive contract but it is Migs only real hope of remaining an independant company. For that reason it is far more willing to offer greater technology transfer and licensing agreements. Equally, although the economic situation in Russia has improved dramatically since the MKI deal there is still a desire to bring in foreign revenue to support an arms industry which is to large to be sustained by domestic orders. Thus, it is more than apparent this deal means far more to Russia and Russian companys than it does to the US.

Fair enough.

4) The F-16I offer comes from an Israeli news paper source. Other more numerous previous sources have said that the F-16E/F is the plane on the cards. This would make more sense as it has been reported that the IAF desires an AESA radar, something which the F-16I currently dosnt have. The offer of the F-16I would also do little if anything to increase the ToT package and reduce the threat of sanctions from the US, due to the fact that it uses an american radar, airframe and engne. In fact other than the EW suite and other elements of software there isnt that much Israeli kit in it.

Now here we go..an Israeli news paper source is suspect…but Indian sources etc etc which pop up a CAG story without actual relevant excerpts in detail are worthwhile..

Face it…you pick and choose what suits your POV …and sorry, but I am calling a spade a spade.

I will quite happily carry on a civilised an polite discussion with Nick but it is becoming increasingly apparent from your posts that you are not capable of this. If you find my poor spelling a problem then I apologise but I have not had any complaints before.

“Sea Lord”- we dont need any apologies, especially since they were not meant in the right vein anyway (as is obvious with the bit about civilized debate which only you can manage)…what would however be great is for you to tone down your speculative spiel or at least acknowledge it as such ..

Or at least wait for the actual report before passing it off as fact, (when you can surely do so then!) and cease and desist from juvenile, ill mannered, misspelt attacks on people who dare to point out that when it comes to citing even official reports, the media so far does not have an enviable record.

You seem to be only too happy to dish out the :rolleyes: and sarcastic comments, but dont want to take it in turn when you are faced with another POV. Sorry, but not all turn the other cheek all the time.

What I wrote about the CAG was basically common sense. That whether it be the CAG or GAO or DERA its common sense to wait for the ACTUAL report before buying in 100% into what the media makes of it.

But this seems to have become an ego thing with you and hence all the :rolleyes: and sarcasm.

This is rather pointless – I have already posted what needed to be said, and you are free to brandish whatever report you have (or dont). The rest of us commoners will wait for http://www.cag.nic.in to update with the actual report.

When you export F-35s you will at all.
First of all you are in need of foreign money to keep that program bearable related to cost.
Second you have to prevent other countries to do own stealth aircraft.
European countries were developing own stealth technologies in the 80s.
The USA undermined that with an offer. Taking part in the JSF-program will give those European countries a look/share into the related technology at all.
In the meanwhile the USA has changed its mind and tries to keep its monopoly as long as possible.
But this will not work for long. In the meanwhile EADS has developed ‘Barracuda’ UCAV and the related stealth features.
Non can prevent the Europeans to export their technolgies.

But in one point we agree, the Middle East is not in need of more weaponary at first.

From 2015 the first F-35 may replace the 35 year old F-16A/Bs in the IDF-AF service. That will not be in a 1:1 scale, but more likely 0,5:1 scale at best.

Excellent post Sens.

So you give up making sensible arguments becouse you dont have any. I never said anything about the JSF in this thread, thats just something from your little fantasy land :rolleyes: .
But since you mentioned it, the JSF is currently under production with several countrys other than the US already committed to the type. In comparison the Mig-35 has yet to fly in any form other than the Mi-g-29OVT demonstrator. Mig has no big orders in the pipeline and the MRCA deal is realy their last chance so yes they are desperate. :rolleyes:

Post # 33. Just so that he cant scurry back and edit it.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=950612&postcount=33

Very true. Russia handed over the MKI tech becouse they were desperate for money and orders, the US on the other hand can afford to tell India where to get off and based on the way recent requests for tech transfer have gone (read JSF) i think it is quite likely.

If it was your contention that it was wrt the UK – dear “Sea Lord” ( :rolleyes: ) you should have been clearer.

Oh wait, but Lord of the Sea was too busy making comments like these..

The UK and the US have been very close allies since before the UK gave up owning India

…

Gee, next I’ll be expecting posts on “your base are belong to us” and “owned” by “Sea Lord”.

I can provide you with multiple news sources for the CAG report on the MKI, and you have none either denying it or giving a contrary comment to it. You have nothing on the issue other reports saying it happened.

Thanks for the blah blah “Sea Lord”, but Lordship since you dont have the actual report, spare me the loose talk..anyone with access to google and the internet can accomplish what you claim to provide…and given how the internet is one echo chamber..having a bunch of newspaper reports…still does not equate to the original…a basic fact which twist and turn as you might, you seem unable to grasp.

:rolleyes:

What a realy usefull educated comment. :rolleyes:

Gee, testy testy…

China is neither Iraq nor North Korea.

Sure, its far worse..if these are the restrictions on China..one need hardly wonder how WMD equipped etc NK or Iraq of the axis of evil would be treated..

Then why did you bring them up in a debate about companies which actually trade with the USA?

Is there a problem with reference to context or even quoting a post properly without misleading and selective pick and choose..

You could have done better by posting the entire statement..

“but the slew of accusations against them was bad enough for the latter at least to publically respond for fear of it influencing its commercial prospects in other countries…”

This is how even companies which dont directly trade with the US can be arm twisted…let alone companies which do and which can be arm twisted even more..

Can you buy the F-22 in Canada for half the price? No? Guess you don’t have much of a point do you? :rolleyes:

Gee, is the US getting anything from the Raptor program apart from the plane itself…gee like technology development, perhaps?

If pure cost is all that one goes by…your words…then the Raptor is a “fiasco” as well, the fact that the US is prepared to pay for such capability is besides the point.. :rolleyes:

The MKI includes a deep license for the entire aircraft and most importantly the AL-31FP turbofans. The timeline has been compressed to its present one. Obviously the cost calculations will change, calling it a fiasco purely based on cost grounds, when it is still value for money is as pointless as calling many other programs worldwide, which have also faced substantial time and cost overruns fiascos purely on those grounds…which includes many American programs giving the US capability which they were prepared to pay for and wait for.

IMO, adding a WSO is a step backwards considering the high level of automation contained within new sensors and precision weapons. HMDs with point & click targeting and sensors that will be able to recognize targets automatically will be faster and more accurate than any human in the back seat. Any member of the Nintendo generation should do well in a single seat airplane.

WSOs are intended for the two seater MKIs & the full up combat trainer versions of aircraft like the Mirage 2000 H, the TH which were recently purchased for Precision strike.
And splitting a gamut of tasks between 2 crew has its own pros.

Very true. Russia handed over the MKI tech becouse they were desperate for money and orders, the US on the other hand can afford to tell India where to get off and based on the way recent requests for tech transfer have gone (read JSF) i think it is quite likely. 😉

You are quite amusing. Where have these recent requests come from but your vivid imagination? If anything, LM is peddling the F-16 as the basis for which a JSF could be ordered. India has made no official requests for the JSF, bar a cursory statement from the Navy that the JSF is a better candidate for their needs than the F/A-18.

As regards the Russians, funny that even today, the MiG-35 is being offered with a more comprehensive technology package than even the MKI was. And that the F-16 I offer seems exactly built to push the F-16 without running into USG hurdles of TOT, even though it does seem doomed (the F-16 was never a frontrunner).