Nick_76Why would they want to do that after the Flanker fiasco? Home grown Flankers cost something like double what they do when they buy them from Russia. If they want all you describe then of course the US is going to say “well what the hell is in it for US??”
Why is the US buying Raptors despite the Raptor fiasco, where the planes cost something like 2-3 X what they were meant to? The point is program cost alone is not the key determiner.
Whats in it for the US? A 125 plane order worth billions! If the US is not interested, then theres always the Russians or the French. Point of the matter is, that technology access does matter for the MRCA, just assembling SKD/ CKD & some offsets wont be enough for India.
Nick_76Why shouldn’t India be allowed to make parts or assemble airplanes? Some 150 F-16s were assembled at Turkey’s TUSAS Aerospace Industries facility. If it was done in the 1990s, it can be done now.
India will want far more in terms of technology transfer than Turkey did, and its local industry is now capable of absorbing such tech, thanks to the LCA and other programs…will the US transfer source codes for the FBW system, MC or even the Radar? Will the EW systems be reprogrammable in India?
Will India get turbofan tech from GE or PW for the engines? Will India be allowed to integrate third party weaponry entirely on its own?
This is far beyond “make a few parts”, assemble the airplane, get offsets in future deals…
Nick_76I used the country names as a blanket attempt to prove a point. Find me a French, Canadian, or German company that is banned from trading in the US since they traded with Iraq.
Delft of Belgium lost access to the US market and US tech for quite some time just because they were tagged for trading with China.
A Russian firm got tagged because it was thought to be supplying GPS jammers to Iraq.
Shipunov of Russia (KMDB) got tagged/ blacklisted because it was accused of selling Kornets to Iraq- a claim which was subsequently found to be false.
These latter two companies were not directly trading with the US, but the slew of accusations against them was bad enough for the latter at least to publically respond for fear of it influencing its commercial prospects in other countries…
Also, being in defence yourself, you are clearly aware of how procurement works- all it requires is a warning or a risk advisory and your firm can be locked out of dozens of deals, without their being even a formal denouement linked to anything.
Careers have been ruined once some person went up against the US mil establishment, companies wont be treated differently.
Even local firms which p!ss off the US services are given the run around to show them who is top dawg- take the case of whats happening with the Dragon skin armour and the company’s CEOs “faith” in the US Army and its trial process..
So what Gollaivanen is saying is not technically incorrect. But what he is incorrect about imho, is giving a clean chit to North Koreas lunatic leadership who are screwing with their people and doing nuclear blackmail…putting the rest of the world on the same pedestal and saying that they are responsible for sanctions alone..is clearly unfair..
Nick_76Same here. The probability of a F-16 in IAF colors is the same as seeing a pig fly. With wings and insignia and airline livery.
The F-16 is regarded with caution by the IAF for several reasons-
1. Its relatively higher attrition figures, as a type, vs other modern fighters
2. Its being operated by the PAF
3. As a design, its at the fag end of its design life
4. Its American hence sanctionable
These factors are all stacked up against it- a F/A 18 E/F if it comes with AESA, despite its airframe limitations, is still a newer design and may swing the deal.
Nick_76That is possibly true. It is considering the facts (invested mony and time, experience of involved industry) actually obvious. However, the JSF is a very special aircraft for a very special mission. From a customer point of view like Norway for example the extra costs for a JSF compared to a Eurofighter is money lost as the tasks to fullfill don’t require a BVR-capability. Taking into account a similar loss rate in peacetime a country is better of in purchasing more of the cheap aircraft. Any kind of war in Europe is rather unrealistic anyways.
This is a valid point, and one which the EF team trying to pitch it to the Norwegians was trying to make. Despite the Raptors and JSF’s- they are not for everyone or nor will they be afforded by everyone..and for some nations its light fighters like the Gripen, which are necessary..
Nick_76I dont like blind statements about how the JSF will kick the EFT in every aspect, and vice versa. To think that either of them is superior to the other is just a blind statment
due to the lack of knowledge of both aircrafts. Or an patriotic act. When the time comes (2010-2015) we all know that they will be equals when we sum up all the pros and cons. The differences will lay on they`re different roles they are built for. F-22 and EFT for airsuperiority, crusemissiles attack/defence, intercept and the fantastic JSF for close air support, recon and escort.
Its not a blind statement to say that technologically, the JSF is a generation ahead of the EF. Its but the plain truth. The rest depends on how the respective aircraft are employed – to minimize their weaknesses and play up their strengths.
Nick_76It happened, they are the facts, get used to it. Do you think that AFM just made up the report? please get real.
Please grow up. I know of how “accurate” AFM is when they cite local reports and how these local reports are when they come to citing the CAG or any such reports. Apparently, any level of conservatism or cautiousness when it comes to such things is lost on you. You might want to read what the previous poster said as well. :rolleyes:
Sens,
When the report is published online – i’ll be glad to table its findings here.
Nick_76Read AFM about that first, before question credibility. I am shure you have not as your answer shows. AFM July 2006 p 22
“A REPORT by the Indian Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) that was placed before Parliament on May 19 revealed …..”
Unless you have a problem with the English language (which I doubt) reread what I said instead of getting a twitchy about credibility…AFM ..is not the word of God, not yet anyways.
This is the website of the Indian CAG
Till the report is put online, and since AFM (as usual) is parroting what appears in Indian / local press, it would do everyone a bit of good to wait till the actual report appears so we can all see whats what and quote the actual report, not third party quotations of second hand reports!
I hope you get the idea this time!
Nick_76Inferior technology!!… that would also apply to the F-22 wouldn’t it, seeing as technology from the JSF program is being retrofitted to the F-22.
C’mon- whats being done is getting the COTS stuff on the Raptor upto present gen. This is mainly for cost and part replacement concerns. Even with older gen chips and the like or older bricks on the AESA radar, or more expensive RAM, the Raptor is miles ahead in sheer performance over any fighter out there.
remember the JSf isn’t due for a while, the typhoon is operating now, in terms of operational effectivness the Typhoon is streets ahead right now…;-)
By the same arguement, the Gripen is better than the JSF or the MiG-21 is better than the JSF…not really accurate…and somewhat of a cop out when comparing relative merits demerits of an aircraft..
Now I guess you want to argue the JSF’s capability when its in service!!, so compare the future JSF to the future Typhoon capability, Caesar etc…. please remember the Typhoons capability will not stand still.(BTW the Caesar is performing beyond expectations)
The Caesar will have to work that much harder against a stealthy JSF…and in LPI mode, its range will drop appreciably against a reg target, let alone a stealthy one..
Lets wait till the JSF is fielded before we guess at its capabilities (remember the F-22 IRST, thrust reversers etc.)
Most of the JSFs avionics, at least those mentioned, are already underway..
As a matter if interest what do people think – will the JSF’s 360 deg IR sensors match the resolution/accuracy of the Forward looking IRST of the Typhoon???.
The JSF has both a forward looking array plus a 360 degree IR one, plus a level of sensor fusion that dwarfs the EF…
Nick_76“the rah! rah! stuff to which RonOO is responding.”
No-one’s claiming that Typhoon has any appreciable all-aspect Stealth characteristics, it’s just being pointed out that EF’s frontal RCS has been managed and optimised for the classic BVR case, and that some of the claims for JSF (four times the effective detection range because of reduced frontal RCS) are exaggerated, and ignore the plethora of other factors influencing the outcome.
Please get your hands on the Norwegian interview of the EF marketing bloke- clearly states that the RCS of the EF is a tenth of that of the F-15,. puts it in the 1 mtr square class. Keeps reiterating throughout that the JSF is stealth, the EF is not. Does not even mention the radar as an option in engaging the JSF, but the PIRATE.
As to supersonic performance, Typhoon supercruises (whether at Mach 1.4, or Mach 1.5, who cares?) and has better supersonic acceleration and agility than F-35.
Which is all very well, unless the JSF uses its better onboard sensors and stealth to deliver a sneaky coup de grace on the EF.
As to radar performance, REAL parametrics are of course highly classified, but even the mechanically scanning Captor is a pretty impressive piece of kit, especially when it comes to detection range.
Given that it has to work so much harder against the JSF, its a moot point.
In any case, RonOo doesn’t seem to be claiming JSF to be superior for AD (“It’s a luck country indeed that gets two such fine aircraft as Typhoon & JSF complementing each other performing the roles they were designed to do: Typhoon for air defense and JSF for ground attack from both land and sea.”)
The basic point, irrespective of how much the EF brigade slices and dices it, is that a stealth aircraft, with reasonable teen series performance or better, and with much better sensors (DAS anyone?) or an AESA from the worlds most experienced country with the type, definitely has significant advantages over the EF in A2A.
If the EF was stealth or VLO- that would be one thing, but for its price, its too little too late.
The primary argument with Ron is over relative price. He selects the lowest available JSF price (Lockheed’s, which is the least credible) and dismisses all of the others, and does the opposite with Typhoon, selecting the highest available EF price (which is far out of line with all other prices, and which is the least credible). He also fails to address the fact that while cost growth is inevitable in both programmes, because Typhoon is over the worst of the R&D hump it is less likely to be as intense as it will be for JSF, for all of the reasons so succinctly summarised by the GAO.
Problem is, cost apart- the EF is inferior technologically to the JSF. Price is a moot point, in that respect.
Nick_76And THIS is one of the reasons why the F-16I have better systems.
There’s no Avionics Technology in the US which Israel doesn’t have can’t have probably already possess.
You have to be joking. Please realize Israels limitations. In terms of most weaponry technologies, the lag between the US and the rest of the world is so large that its not even funny.
Israel does no limit itself with the systems we placed in our F-16I, which are classified.
Yes, there are no restrictions on Israel tinkering with its own toys, which makes its own items better for its use.
Nick_76The Indian comptroler gives away, that the Su-30MKI is running into huge cost overruns. The Indian built examples are much more expensive the Irkutsk built ones. The program-costs had doubled in the meanwhile. Source AFM.
Again, AFM etc are only repeating what Indian media says- and Indian media themselves havent provided relevant excerpts only the usual “too much money on defense” rubbish. We dont know exact breakup of costs etc- please remember that timelines have been significantly compressed, hence original cost calculations would no longer be valid.
Unless, the exact report is seen, all this is somewhat misleading, since half correct information, while better than no information at all, is still half correct.
Nick_76According to a report put to the Indian Parliament by the Comptroller and Auditor General on May 19th this year the Indigenously built Su-30MKI’s are now costing more than they would have done had they have been imported from Russia :rolleyes: . The overall projected cost has escalated massively from $4.87 billion in 2000 to $8.633 billion in July 2005 (From a HAL project report) 😮 , so your figures are no longer correct.
Unless you have that report, your statements are speculative as are the news media reports citing it. I would advise that you wait till the report is put online and made public- which it invariably is, before you make such categorical comments. :rolleyes:
Nick_76Nick:
One should’nt have a Chuck Yeager type complex in such matters.
Gee George, I think you are becoming Oracleized to pass such silly comments without even asking what the other persons sources are. :p
A Chuck Yeager complex would refer to tight A$$ed martial pilots always defeating dark skinned rice eating Indians, on account of religion and skin color, like our neighbours believe in- I made no comments on these lines, merely pointed out the aircraft record for one particular exercise.
Search on this very forum for Irkuts comments about the MKI vs F-16, and since it is an official spokesperson not some arbitrary russian media, it can be taken more seriously than what some Indian media or Singaporean stiff upper lip says.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=809220&postcount=124
NPK Irkut Vice-President for International Marketing Vladimir Sautov confirmed to JDW interest from Algeria (and Thailand) in the Su-30MKI multirole fighter.
Sautov said the Indian Air Force (IAF) Su-30Ks won eight out of 10 simulated air combats with US Air Force F-15Cs during a joint exercise and that IAF Su-30MKIs subsequently won all 10 engagements with Republic of Singapore Air Force F-16s during a similar joint exercise. He said these victories had “contributed greatly” to restoring the image of the Russian fighter image in the Gulf countries operating F-16s.
The Bison of course, didnt do as well against the F-16s of the RSAF as it did in Cope India, so of course the Singaporeans would take umbrage at any claims that it was a whitewash.
Of course, before you burst a capillary- he didnt mention which kind of engagements those were, but other reports of the time- Indian media, mention the IAF concluding that the “avionics on the MKI” not being inferior, in fact quite the reverse, which of course, could refer to BVR being included as merely WVR would not depend on avionics much, and TVC apart, there is every bit of chance, that a Python IV + Dash equipped F-16 Block 52 can get luckier against a much larger MKI, despite its TVC+ Sura- K + R73E combo.
Nick_76MKI costs more than 60 million dollars a unit…and they dont want to put all eggs in one basket.
We dont know what cost that is. Product cost, program cost, or with spares and weapons etc
Against the RSAF Block 52’s, MKIs won 10/ 10 engagements..
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