Nick_76Jacko, go read the 2nd paragraph in the JSF article again:
“But by 2014 or so, that price tag should fall to slightly less than $50 million for a conventional F-35 and a bit more than $60 million for a vertical-lift plane, Enewold said.”
The JSF article is correct. The first batch to be made are all for the US and will be used to develop the aircraft. Normally a program would have a handful of prototypes before production. Prototypes cost more to build. A lot more. To save time, JSF will have a large number built speeding the development process. This approach is not without its critics notably the US GAO. After that comes the production aircraft available to the JSF partners to buy which are forecast to average $50m each across the variants with the F-35A being at $47m which is the flyaway price quoted to Norway and the other countries interested in that variant.
Talk of production JSF running over $100m each is just plain rubbish. They will not double in price.
The UK MoD has stated the average flyaway of Typhoon T1 & T2 is £64m. That figure has been audited by the UK’s National Audit office. That figure has been quoted by the UK Minister of Defense in parliament 2 months ago. Repeated assertions that the number is incorrect is just retarded. These people do not lie.
Obviously there is a variance in price between 1st off the line and last. So I don’t think anyone would claim £64m will be the price of a possible Typhoon Tranche 3 aircraft. So much depends on what T3 is specified to do and how much that will cost to develop. Talk of Typhoon finishing its development is obvious balony when it’s new radar hasn’t even flown in a Typhoon yet. To claim that including all this extra development, T3’s will be £45m each is I think the height of wild optimism. Especially given the history of the program blowing through it’s budgets.
While I’m here, talk of Typhoon having a comparable RCS to JSF is laughable. The rather short ranged Typhoon will be loaded with enough tanks, pods and external weapons especially in the ground attack configuration to have the RCS of the Houses of Parliament.
Just as daft is trashing JSF’s sensor & ECM fit. Being 20 years newer technology plus a great dollop of infusion from the F-22, the JSF will have no trouble at all in detecting any Typhoon way before the Typhoon can detect the JSF. Typhoon’s towed decoy might decoy a missile or two but not for ever. Of course being LO, JSF doesn’t need a decoy advertising its presence.
JSF will carry ASRAAM internally so that’s not an advantage Typhoon can claim. Both the UK & Australia will use it LOAL.
Lastly, I agree 100% with FLTGSHDW & AndyMcnebb’s comments. it’s a luck country indeed that gets two such fine aircraft as Typhoon & JSF complementing each other performing the roles they were designed to do: Typhoon for air defense and JSF for ground attack from both land and sea. However I fear that the kind of bullshyt that Jacko pedals here and in print will distort any debate in the UK about how many of each type provides the correct balance. Shame really.
Have to agree with this, especially the last para. The JSF is a stealth aircraft and even the Typhoon manufacturers dont play it up amateur commentators and journalists do. Those who are interested can look up the recent Typhoon marketing manager (ex RAF F3 pilots) comments for the Norwegian competition (if my memeory is correct)- he was far more rational and balanced than the rah! rah! stuff to which RonOO is responding to.
Nick_76Fnord,
HAL is part of the process, so are IAF BRD’s- they are there because MiG was so incompetent at providing spares!
And despite all the issues, these orgs are still better than what MiG has done/ been able to provide, entirely why the IAF is spending out of its pocket in keeping these efforts running.
As regards “substandard”- MiG has been far worse, not the Irkut -277 factory but RAC- MiG..maintenance ppl found production gear in assembled engines..almost 2/3rds of the engines broke down much much before stated time..
According to Indian Public Accounts Committee data, HAL lic. manufactured aircraft have lower Tech. defects than OEM ones even maintained by IAF, which continue to suffer from OEM design and spares issues..
The IAF & HAL would not be in the indeginization process, if MiG did its job..
Look at Dassault for a counter example…IAF Mirage 2000s clock over 90% availability…and nor has the IAF been forced to spend on massive local parts replacement because Dassault continues to support its product..
Lastly MiG 29s are primarily handled by IAF BRD, whilst overhaul is at HAL Nasik- there are no “licenses” provided by MiG or designs for replacement..the replacement components are of better quality..since they were designed using modern CAD/CAM and manufactured using CNC machines..which apparently many OEM providers to RAC MiG at the time hadnt switched to..
This is also very controversial since RAC MiG is angry that India is now making its own spares ..but typically instead of solving the problem they tried to arm twist..which backfired…now Irkuts Fedorov has taken over MiG so probably their customer service and attitude will change…
Nick_76MC1/2 and RC1/RC2 were developed based on the experience gained from the LCA program.
http://www.csirwebistad.org/aesi/pages/coreavionics.htm
You forgot DP-486, INCOM 1210 A, IFF all of which were developed for the LCA.
Nick_76we did WHAT?
Most Islamic papers conveniently allege that September 11th was a Mossad- CIA conspiracy to launch a Zionist conspiracy etc :rolleyes:
Nick_76Why not Zhuk ME, R77 and R73E..might be even cheaper, and the radar BVR missile combo is longer ranged..
Nick_76Theres one for sure, the Indo- Russian fifth gen project, the MCA may be part of this
India wants a 50% stake in the project from the word go, inn thre most challenging electronics, design and assembles
We wont be joining the PAK-FA! 🙁
But we could always buy a few later :rolleyes:
The Brits have offered India a stake in the FOAS strike, manned variant if we buy the Eurofighter :rolleyes:
Nick_76Peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream. Iran could start building McDonalds, importing Megadeth CDs, and opening tourist spots in Q’om tomorrow, but the real key to peace in the Middle East will never, ever, EVER be turned so long as Israel holds the trump card of nuclear power over the Muslim world. Get Israel to get rid of their nukes and we can start really talking. You get a lot farther when both sides are on a much leveller playing field.
And voting in Hamas in Palestine? Much credit to the Palestinian people, that was absolutely fabulous. That is democracy truly at work. The US government should embrace the Palestinian election as a model for the rest of the non-democratic world. The results of that would be interesting to watch.Yet we embargo comparitively beingn Cuba. Talk about a double standard. “Communism bad…except if they have nuclear weapons!”
Yup, why doesnt the US renounce nuclear weapons then…talk of a level playing field.
In fact- all Israel is doing, is what the US has shown consistently for the past century, that national interest reigns supreme and when it comes to security, a maximalist posture backed by technology is the only way to go..dont see you cribbing over what the US does to maintain its technological edge over the rest of the world & that it takes extreme steps routinely, bypassing the UN as well, semantics apart..
If you have issues with Israel getting your taxpayer $$, thats entirely understandable- but again who’s responsible for that but your own politicians?
If they didnt have nukes your troops would have to sit there- would that be better? Plus, the way the MEs attitude is s*crewed up, they would have done everything to attack Israel and conduct yet another genocide..didnt see any Jews celebrating September 11th, though they are sure held responsible for it..from dailies from Pakistan to Africa to the ME..
Use the right arguements- slamming Israel for being suspicious of its irrendist Islamist neighbours, being aggressive in protecting itself, is pointless and dare I say it, disingenuous given the way the US behaves in all these respects.
Nick_76That is interesting information nick. The desired aircraft would have be Dam good as a bomb truck and strike aircraft going by the aircrafts it is intended to replace,however going by the PAKFA it seems it is going to be more of F-22 proportions with multi-role capability..would it then fit into the job the jags and 27’s ??? Or would it be more of an su-30MKI type asset which is basically long range Air defence and long range strike type platform..One can only wait and see I guess !!!!
Multirole, so Air superiority will be one of the missions, hence internal carriage, AESA radar, stealth etc. But essentially a tactical fighter without IFR. The MKI/ PAK-FA/F-22A are all heavies.
The Indo-Russian fifth gen fighter is basically a twin engined (afaik) JSF “equivalent”- basically a stealthy replacement of the (now) venerable MiG-29 series.
Nick_76Folks are mixing up things..
The fifth gen fighter program is intended for the future! Not now
1. Now the IAF has, Bisons, MKIs, Mirage-2000s, MiG29s, MiG-27’s, Jaguars, plus all these aircrafts trainer variants (MiG23 UM since there is no 2 seater 27)
The MiG23BNs/ MFs are all but gone. The older FL/MF variants too.
2. Current status: ~40 MiG27s to be upgraded locally, ~40 Jaguars to be upgraded locally, plus 37 new build Jaguars ordered with something like 20 two seaters of the lot, MKI production underway to complete the entire lot of 140 in the coming years. 126 MRCAs to be purchased. 67 MiG 29s to be upgraded. 28 LCAs on order, plus another 2 squadrons of Bisons to be sanctioned (this is “planned”).
So as we can see, the older Jags and MiG-27s will probably be allowed to wither away. But the IAF will be losing 72 MF’s, 18 BNs, 18 MFs, 64 FLs for sure. Of the remaining a/c- 60 MiG 27s and 24 Jags remain to be upgraded (ie planned for)..so for loss of 172 older MiG 21s and 23s confirmed…plus say older Jags and 27s- another 84 a/c- 262 a/c
IAF will be inducting ~ 150 MKIs, ~ 126 MRCAs, ~200 LCAs,..by which time other aircraft such as the oldest Bisons will also be due for replacement…thats 476 aircraft run, vs the 262 to be deinducted, plus say substantial numbers of Bisons etc…still leaves some leeway for IAF
But IAF wants to remain a 39.5 squadron force- ~600-700 aircraft!
Which is why by then, another program to run a fifth gen fighter should be ready somewhat or in the middle of its testing program…which when it starts coming in will start replacing older Jags, and MiG-27s
So a messy scene…but all dependent upon rate of “loss” vs rate of “induction”
But the IAF is replacing earlier gen A/C with far more effective ones
This is somewhat true of the PLAAF as well (J-7s to Flanker transition) but not of PAF which will remain a tactical fighter force, whose “future” acquisitions already appear inferior to India’s current inductions
Nick_76there must have been some error or some deleted posts cuz it seems that you are charecterizing me as a troll on the basis of me finding the barbie song a bit funny which is rediculous to say the least???? Is it trolling when someone humours over a song playing in the background?? or is it trolling if someone dares say something which he finds funny?? or are we not allowed to do it on this thread ie. voice personal opinion!! I Would seriously recomend that the people concerned should look at the past history of a user and trolling patterns before publicaly calling someone a troll!!! it is humiliating to have a charge leveled against you for displaying humour over background music specially when the user’s bias towards IAF is clearly known!! I would like the mods to take notice of this “if indeed such a thing is true” . I dont get into personnal name calling and i definately dont like it when someone does it to me.
Hi, B, which post by who got you worked up? :confused:
Nick_76The original Lightning and Mustang weren’t mud-movers.
Mustangs created havoc as fighter bombers
Superb name for the JSF, which is shaping up to be a amazing fighter
Nick_76A very strong statement. Considering rules of engagement often require proper ID before engagement I would expect WVR to be more common… western IFF doesn’t seem to be anything special yet.
Equally the PVO might have less actual combat experience but equipment and training for BVR combat is hardly inferior. In fact with the withdrawl of the Phoenix the Russians have the longest range AAM in operation today… in fact they probably have the two longest range AAMs operational today if you include the R-33 and the R-40TD.
ROE are a self imposed limitation by the US.
And how many R-33s are in service, and arent these SARH missiles?
Nick_76does the word “inflation” mean anything to you? you do realise it will take till 2014+ for the last batch of flankers to roll out.
Not just inflation but compression! The program is to be completed faster.
No wonder costs went up! This also means upgrades to MKIs will come faster, if we follow what edefense and Bekirbayev had said about improvements to radar and newer weapons, which is also good.
Nick_76Assuming a squadron strength of 18 (16+2), this means 54 LCA by 2017. If so, what happens to the original plans for 220 LCA units?
They’ll come thereafter. The IAF, per Chief of Air Staff Krishnaswamy, planned to induct sequential blocks of upgraded LCA’s. And against J-10’s, JF-17’s, Block 15-52 F-16s the LCA is a viable design.
Also squadron strengths vary, 16+2 is lower limit, it can go upto 24 in some cases, though not always.
Nick_76Stand corrected.. In that way, a dollar value is of certain interest. But that puts countries with otherwise weak currencies into serious disadvantage, if you want to compare the amount of their aid. That is why the differences appear so huge..
But overall effort also counts, almost a third of the IN was engaged in relief efforts plus the US put in a lot of help too..this is in addition to money.
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