Nick_76The Su-27M was not to have TVC and flew in 1988, the Su-30M was not to have TVC and was tested and approved in the air to air role of mini AWACs for the PVO. It had no air to ground capability and was used purely as an airborne GCI with the radar operator on board.
ok, but none of these was relevant to the pak-fa/ codevelopment thingy then. since the pak-fa is development from scratch and has two nations with somewhat differing requirements included. your flanker development analogy (basic) was more applicable in terms of prototype to final version w/many changes along the way.
Yakhont was export missile, Onyx was Russan only weapon. When the Yakhont was developed there was little money, Indian money helped complete its design, but it was purely Russian designed.
‘swhat i said. it wasnt ready.
Nick_76Nick, would $1.5 bil be enough for MCA? How much money has been invested into LCA project so far? I know LCA has been a learning curve, but still…?
total LCA costs are around the $ 1.5- 2 Billion figure. But the money has been allocated phase by phase, so my statement about the $ 1 billion in previous post. the amount actually spent has been around less than a $ 1billion, but it includes the first 8 lsp.
like I said, how the MCA will work is that they’ll ask for around $ 1.5 billion for the MCA in different phases, and the engine costs will probably be under a separate head.
i do anticipate that costs will be lower than a comparable program elsewhere and secondly, a direct comparison with the lca wont work, because a lot of the stuff that the lca consumed was not just in technology but actually infrastructure,
everything from wind tunnels to radar labs to actuator production has been covered by the lca budget. there was no ada before the lca ..now there are huge labs all over the place, each with infra. not complete by any means, but a lot of the basic stuff has been covered.
and this money remember, is just the initial stuff. goi will cover cost escalations as always. the big thing is to get the project sanctioned which is why i said drdo will pitch an estimate slightly on the lower side. our system works like that onlee
How low? Most MMRCA contenders have relatively lower RCS wrt their earlier counterparts, and have true multirole capabilities. Where would MCA fit between LCA/MMRCA/MKI/PAK-FA?
mca is meant to be stealth. internal carriage, reduced rcs all around, etc. no way will it be a heavy fighter raptor style aircraft, but it will be reasonably stealthy. even the saab proposal to south korea has a gripen derivative with similar design changes so the basic concept is sound
and as part of the lca program a lot of work has gone on in rcs modelling and stuff
What would be the effect on production unit price if only 5-6 squadrons are procured? We all know that with each batch, production costs usually come down. Also how about maintenance, future upgrades, and associated costs etc.???
see the lca per unit cost will be borne by goi.
if the iaf cribs about cost goi will pay up. when the mki came, it was projected at 30 million a pop, now its 45-60 depending on what all you put on it, but its still going along, right?
same here
what the lca is, has, been meant for is to give india the ability to make its own fighter end to end. in that sense, you need a sample size of around 5-6 squadrons for the iaf to truly involve it in their force structure and use it. thats the basis of my (perhaps needlessly) downsized estimate
the per unit costs are not such an issue because hal isnt investing in a production run of 50 lcas per annum. they will tool up for a squadron a year.
the maintenance etc will be taken care of since hal will be forced to play nice with the iaf if they slip up.
upgrades are also not an issue, since this is a local product, drdo can in fact budget for r&d under its head, and the iaf escapes the sting. in fact, this is the fun part, using the mca, they’ll drive stuff to the lca upg and vice versa.
Where are the sources for MCA preliminary work coming from? Are they being diverted from LCA, and if so is it wise as the latter is yet to clear several hurdles?
not really such a big issue at present, since this is preliminary work, not detailed design. for $$ drdo basically submits an account of what all it requires funds for, and goi clears it. this is coming from their internal head. in terms of resources, since lca is already in flight testing, some of the lcas basic design teams do have space to work on the mca
Nick_76This post reminded me that somewhere it was mentioned that the initial avionics of the PAK-FA will be staged in levels with the first level similar to a lot of the stuff used in the Su-35, with later stuff added as its technology improves/matures.
Certainly an export PAK-FA will have more Indian content than the Russian model, which is likely to have all Russian content.
another point is that @ 2-3 billion $, let alone 5 billion $, india will insist that no pak fa tech ends up being hawked to china.
and if further exports are made, then there has to be some sort of profit sharing venture in terms of joint production of export variants..since both put in the money for the development.
A single engine smaller PAK-FA might make a good mca and a smaller engined single make a great lca too. It is a great learning and growing exercise for both India and Russia.
Pak-fa input might be there, but it definitely wont be scaled up/down from the same.
Only 5 billion dollars to get a 5th gen fighter that you have some say in the future development of that you can integrate stuff into… sounds like a better deal than the Brits got with the F-35.
its a lot of money for india because a developing country like india is very cautious about what it puts its money into. to put it into perspective, even the entire lca program hasnt received a full billion $ yet.
As I mentioned a single engine version of the PAK-FA might be worth looking at, but it all depends upon how the PAK-FA turns out… it might be good enough and cheap enough to replace the mca requirement… of it might be too expensive and so a cheaper single engine version might be worth developing.
indias mca concept is twin engined. russia might develop a single engined pak-fa for themselves perhaps, but like i said, the mca will be very ada driven, so they wont just adopt a ready design since the entire aim of the lca is to complete the path begun with the lca, ie master design to production to service lifecycle inhouse. albeit other firms assistance will be taken
This is a prototype, not the production aircraft. If there are faults in the prototype they will need to be fixed, which will require changes. The design of the prototype is fixed, not that of the final aircraft.
correct. and per what i know the prototypes design is by no means optimum. there will be a lot of finetuning along the way.
In a sense you could look at the very first prototype of the Flanker (you know, the ugly one that looked a bit like a Hornet) and say that is where PAK-FA is at the moment. When the prototype flys and is tested and the RCS is tested and some systems are tested then changes will start to be suggested and applied and once everyone is happy then the design for the final preproduction aircraft will be created and sent to the manufacturers to build the first production models.
agree. another thing is that russian sources themselves are very cynical about the pak-fa noting that it will require a lot of tlc to make it come upto what russia itself expects of it. but the iaf is more optimistic and say that even the mki was considered undoable? foolish optimism, pragmatism, or fatalism..time will tell?!
Nick_76The avionics of the Su-27 and Su-27M and the Su-30M were all finalised before the Su-30MKI was developed.
dont know which m you are referring to, but the mk with tvc etc was definitely not done. even the design was formalized after multiple visits back and forth. indian money led to the completion of tests of most of the avionics including radar etc. and it took almost 4-5 years after the deal was signed to get most of the systems ready to go even in base form.
Equally the Yakhont and Onyx were completed before Brahmos was developed too.
nope. thats just the media blitz. i talked to npo-mash guys and there was quite a bit of testing left on the missile system itself before it was ready. while india used the testing to come up with the brahmos, russia did it for the yakhont with all russian gear.
Nick_76hey abhi can you tone down the bold fonts, i can read well even without my glasses ..;)
In such a case, it will not be different than the Su-30 MKI, which again does not qualify as a joint venture, but as joint modification only. This has been discussed previously. The demand for $5 billion is only for purchase of licence production rights and rights to the necessary interfaces to add Indian avionics.
i think its important to be pragmatic. agreed this is not ideal but nothing is.
while this may not be a true from the scratch build up, it might be brahmos like, where the russians give us what they have, but with our thoughts in mind and we add what we have.
now with the mki, to be honest, we took what was available in the flanker and added on top of it, we want long range radar, tvc, new avionics, open architecture..but in this case, even the basic design is not fixed beyond a point. thats what my sources tell me is why a team was in dilli recently to wrap up the final details with iaf.
of course its a bit worrying that we are paying 5 billion for this..but that cost i think includes the aircraft themselves (dont trust media reports till we have more clear picture) and it wont be so much.
$2-3 billion is possible.
and no, they wont add necessary interfaces to add indian avionics, they’ll build them in from scratch and that will require indian involvement .
remember, this is a new fighter, not an existing one which we add onto. all the stuff of design being fixed is public consumption bs..to make sure critics of the program back off. i can bet you 2 beers that the finalisation stuff will happen some 3-4 years from now (if theyre lucky) after the prototype is flown extensively
Because of highly prohibitive costs (and no global security requirements), it may be unlikely that India will fund and maintain 2 fifth G fighter planes. Russia, UK, China and France too have single 5th G plans only.
yaar, this may be unlikely business doesnt work with india..we march to our own crazy drumbeat. its good and its bad.
i’ll tell you what drdo will do now itself. they will ask for 1.5 billion for the mca and split it in such a way that it appears reasonable. goi will give it, and they’ll be happy.
the mca is going to come in as a lca derivative for low rcs strike, and it will be cleared mark my words.
have u noticed even one complaint from drdo over pak-fa? no, right? they have been given an assurance from goi that after lca, there will be a mca. natrajan said so in feb this year. they are even planning for a lca ucav variant.
The MRCA deal could not undermine Tejas’ production, as 220 separate Tejas planes are guaranteed in any case. However, the PAK-FA may lead to total cancellation of the MCA.
dont worry about 220 or anything man, anything equal to and above 5-6 squadrons of the lca, be happy, because the lca has done its purpose
thats enough to establish a good production run.
The IAF has never once mentioned the MCA in public, like it has the PAK-FA, even though there is no imminent requirement of a 5th G plane.
why will iaf mention it when lca is yet to be inducted? you have to understand how political this entire thing is and how system works in india. talk to people spend some time and you’ll understand
first, iaf wants lca to be inducted, till then they will shoot down any drdo attempt to work on the next stage in public. because they will be afraid that drdo will not focus on getting lca finished and start off on mca.
and also because being the user focus service they are, they dont think of long term much and are only focused on now. thats the way they are
but privately, drdo has received goi clearance for initial mca design, they have contacted iaf, and preliminary design work would have begun. it has. check what drdo has stated.
now iaf knows that its pak-fa is coming for its cutting edge so they are happy, and they’ll clear the mca also once lca is in service. but till then drdo has work cut out ..they need to get the lca ready and in service.
u saw the tuff time iaf, ia gave hal? they made them stop production of alh, get every thing according to iaf, ia requirements and then start. thats the way they are.
but was alh cancelled or foreign choppers bought? has any program been cancelled except trishul, and even there we have follow on being made ready.
dont worry man, it will work out.
Nick_76i think even this pad is not the end state. they used a prithvi propulsion because it works exactly as what they want of it given they know it in and out, but they might shift to a more compact solid motor over time. and of course, there will be incremental improvements to propellants, casing etc. for lighter missiles for same performance. but still two layers, so two missiles, two tels and two missile packs. who knows, for extending the volume, a third missile might appear, probably based on agni motor technology.
of course, the us has decades of experience in this, so their systems will display more refinement etc.
one thing which india will have to get from elsewhere though, per discussions on brf, are probably the long range imaging infrared sensors that us missiles increasingly use for end state interception. probably israel or france, while they attempt to make their own?
Nick_76@abhimanyu,
dont be so despondent.
nobody knew about what was indian in the mki and at that point of time, india had far less money and time to contribute.
according to both iaf and hal, yes there will be indian stuff in pak fa. this is first hand info. it will mostly be avionics related and the design specs are actually being accomodated to meet iaf demands which stress on certain avionics and performance criteria. ada has also said it will help out. so dont worry have curry.
pak fa will fly in indian colors, dont get blood pressure over it because u and i cant do anything about the decision, just hope that the mod funds the mca once lca is done.
Nick_76theres also the question of the definition of range. the akashs 27 km for instance, refers to when its propulsion is still active. but in conventional sam terms with raw range taken into account w/in which it can still knock down a plane- thats entirely a different issue, since each design will have different drag per design, and that would dictate how much energy the missile would retain for how much time, at what altitude before its bled off.
Nick_76could be higher too, see above..
also, since its got a role as the all important 2nd tier abm knockdown, its optimized for carrying a lot of stuff and growth volume that might be unnecessary versus an aircraft target but is necessary for an abm system.
Nick_76http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3643
typo about propellant but the range suggested here is about 150 km..
Ashwin: New Surface-to-Surface Missile In The Offing?
Dated 12/12/2007
Two successful interceptor missile tests carried out by Indian scientists as part of the country’s ballistic missile defence program in the first week of December has led to development of a new surface-to-surface missile that could be possibly named as ‘Ashvin’.
The endo-atmospheric interceptor missile AAD, the missile used to engage the approaching ‘enemy’ missile at a height of around 15 kms from the surface of the earth could be used as a surface-to-surface missile in the days ahead.
The AAD, which is 7.5 mts long and has a solid rocket propeller with siliconised carbon jet vanes, has a range of over 150 kms and could achieve a maximum velocity of 1400 m/s.
The USP of this AAD is its high precision INS system, faster on board computer with advanced technologies like RF seeker, agility and the capability to launch the missile in any direction in autonomous mode.
The December tests have validated that the AAD could also be used as an Extended Range Surface-to-Air Missile, beside being used as a ballistic missile interceptor.
Dr V K Saraswat, who is the team leader of the ballistic defence programme, was also involved with the development of the India’s first surface-to-surface missile Prithvi I and Pritnvi II (Dhanush).
“The AAD could be used to target aircraft,” Dr. Saraswat said, adding that its successful launch has opened up a ‘new era’ with the development of supersonic interceptor missiles that can be used for defence against Cruise missiles.
He said that the AAD part of the missile defence programme is completely independent from surface-to-surface missile programme and that it is purely a spin off of the entire project.
Prithvi I is India’s first indigenously developed tactical surface-to-surface short-range ballistic missile (SRBM) developed under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program and has already been inducted into the Army.
The single stage liquid-fuelled Prithvi I with maximum warhead mounting capability of 1000 kg has a range of 150 km. It has an accuracy of 10- 50 metres, while the AAD is precise to 0.5 mts.
Prithvi II (Dhanush) is the Air Force version of 250 kms range and capacity to carry a payload of 500kg, while Prithvi III is the naval version of 350 km range with a payload of 500 kgs.
Defending the idea of having a ballistic defence program, Dr. Saraswat said that threats of ballistic missile exists along with the proliferation of these threats, and added since India has a no first use policy, it becomes inevitable to protect the country from any future missile attack.
“The program shows the defensive position of the country and not an offensive position,” he added.
there have been various estimates published, from 90 to 120, and the above, even 150. i took the middle estimate.
Nick_76Ok well that makes sense, so what is the range of the AAD against aircraft? I assume that there are plans for a more effective TEL than the one we have seen during the test carrying just a single missile?
the tel is capable of carrying 3 missiles, but for test purposes it was configured for one, basically.
the range against an aircraft will be around 100-120 km per previous reports.
Now that Akash seems to have finally come good it would make sense to push on as fast as possible with the next generation of indigenous projects.
its all about building blocks. now they have confidence, and multiple modules of technology, from radars, to guidance, they have the ability to come up with different items for different applications.
Nick_76http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/CU-DRDO-come-up-with-joint-venture/253414/
CU, DRDO come up with joint venture
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Express news service
Posted online: Sunday , December 23, 2007 at 12:00:00Kolkata, December 22 Union External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee laid down the foundation stone of the Centre for Millimetre Wave Semiconductor Devices & Systems (CMSDS) on Saturday, a joint venture between the Calcutta University (CU) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
The state government has allotted 3.7 acres near Nayabag in east Jadavpur for the Rs 49.5 crore project. In this regard, a memorandum of understanding (MoU) had been signed at the DRDO Bhavan in New Delhi in August 2006.
CMSDS Director Prof S K Roy, who is a faculty of CU’s radio-physics department, said, “Work will begin in 2008 and the project will be completed within a year. The centre will work on radar imaging, missile guidance technology and remote sensing, which will benefit the defence sector.”
He added, “The research project can also be put to use in the civilian sector by developing anti-collision devices for cars and trains, wireless television and increased mobile connectivity.”
Scientific advisor to the defence minister and Head of the DRDO, M Natarajan, while lauding the project, said: “We require professional researchers in large numbers and this centre will help us in our endeavour.”
Governor Gopal Krishna Gandhi, also the Chancellor of Calcutta University, said, “The Calcutta University is privileged to have such a research centre
Nick_76Are there any plans for an indigenous long range AD system in India, seperate from Barak-NG? Maybe a longe ranged Akash derivative?
thats the aad! its meant for intercepting both abm as the 2nd tier, as well as a long range interceptor of aircraft and cruise missiles.
there are currently 4 air defense projects underway:
1.akash
2.project air defence (abm + cruise missile)
3.barak ng (for navy and air force)
4.maitri (replacement for trishul for all 3 services)
what really sucks is that trishul had cleared its trials too for the af and demonstrated consistent flight performance, but the great minister of defence had already opened his mouth in parliament and said project would be wound up. so it was.
but on the other side, its replacement will be far more sophisticated, with its own seeker in all possibility, and more modern radars. but they will surely reuse the trishul launchers and c3i eqpt or make derivatives of it.
Nick_76Now that Akash is available, by when can we expect an ‘official’ order from IAF/IA for this system? Any idea how many would be on order??? What effect (if any) this would have on indian decision to purchase spyder???
Vikas, like i said and in fact much more than i had anticipated, they are ordering 4 batteries to begin with! i had thought they’d begin with 2 batteries, instead they have ordered a full group. makes sense.
and then more will follow!
From br, posted by jc:
a huge success for DRDO 😎
16 launchers come with 5 radars (4 raj plus 3d Car) and other doodads. good stuff
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=9752
Akash missile to be inducted in air force
16 launchers have been ordered by the AF according to IAF Chief of Air Staff to “begin with”.
if each squadron has 16 launchers, just a few more squadrons and the entire development costs will be written off. 😮
Nick_76AF Launcher AKASH, DEFENSE UPDATE
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