Nick_76i think this present govts cowardice in signing arms deals has been the bane of the services. not to mention the sheer chaos in the system.
7 years for a helicopter, then cancelled.
7 years for arty, then cancelled, because our foren politician lady maino doesnt want bofors to win.
what was the need to investigate the spyder deal now, ffs? and what was the need to buy the spyder if a drdo mbda tri-service missile is already being planned? too much confusion.
the idiots dont know what they are doing at all.
they screwed up the relationship with russia as well. and the lca program delay is not enuff, now they want to put the mrca in us hands despite india and us not seeing eye to eye on pak.
this upa govt has been a total train disaster.
Nick_76i have read those. what i was wondering was, how accurate is the kh-31s seeker at range, because if i launch it at 100 km, and at 80 km away, if the radar shuts down, how will my kh-31 react? will it miss the target totally, or will it explode harmlessly, or will its seeker continue scanning for the radar to reappear?
the latest version of harm apparently uses a gps to have a ;last position for the target to take it out, even if the radar goes off. but knowing how seekers need to be updated, and the need for triangulation, for 3 coordinate availability, i doubt it can do this at range.
imo, against an opponent like pakistan, which is devoid of air defence but target rich, the best thing to do is launch kh-31s at low altitude and min safe range (say 10 km out of AD envelope) to take out the radar. or use man in the loop missiles like popeye or kh-59 mk to target radars already pinpointed by satellite surveillance or esm.
Nick_76Both sides are thinking hard to exploit their strong points and deny something similar to the opponent.
An AWACs over the home-turf is excellent tool for setting-up traps related to that. Every commander is aware, that an AWACs is a prime target and briefed about all possible threats against that fielded by the opponent. A radar-netting and CGI support is ground based too. The Chinese mentors are accustomed to most weaponary fielded in South Asia. The related strong-points and weaknesses are well known.
The one fighting over the home-ground will have some advantages by that.
what the iaf (imho) has more experience in than the paf, is bvr tactics. its already moved to the next stage, ie taking on established bvr experts and getting (hard) and valuable lessons while dishing out some of its own.
so that might help.
otherwise, yes, the defenders hometown advantage holds true, but both sides india and pak, extensively train for localized conditions since its facing each other and not expeditionary war.
coming to china, i do wonder how much china can support pak where it matters apart from war stock replenishment and some help on tactics. indias weaponry is a mixture of french, soviet and indian, most of which is not in chinese service or even paks.
where china can certainly help is with the russian gear in service. like general performance figures for r-77/aa-12, aa-10 etc. which by itself is a good thing to have, but specific frequencies etc will be different.
one more reason for the iaf to make its own astra aam i guess and not rely on others, whether it be amraams or micas or r-77s!
ps: do you know whether a kh-31 can take out a target which stops emitting, or whether it just goes haywire?
Nick_76I did highlight some of your writing for a second thought.
To point one:
The detection and tracking range is related to a system. What moduls are fitted, what software is loaded and how is your adversary trained in its proper use.
The PAF pilots are used to deal with fighters of the size of a F-7/MiG-21 f.e.The second point are exercises:
They are conducted to rules set-up to get the best training for both sides.
One side is looking into its shortcomings to overcome that, when another is more intrested in confidence-building into the own equipment. Even small changes in such staged exercises can bring different results.The third point is healthy respect:
Here you show that kind of healthy respect to avoid nasty surprises triggered by some kind of overconfidence in own capabilities. Maybe Indian pilots may get the opportunity to test their skills against Israeli F-16 pilots.
They do seldom the pleasure to “play” to the rules set for exercises. In real wars there are no rules to stick too!
all those are very valid and sensible points and i agree with you about overconfidence and what results from that.
personally, the moment i heard paf was getting active BVR (and china has them too)- two words come to my mind. towed decoys. the iaf should equip all its aircraft with them. even better than spj in my view.
i hope the mrca comes with it too. only 2 candidates seem to have TDs already- the euro fighter and the f/a-18 e/f.
about israel…yup, iaf pilots would go on quiet sabbaticals to visit israel and come back with hands on knowledge on combating the viper in dact. but the good news for the iaf (which they havent tom tommed at all) is the recent agreement on the rsaf visits to kkd airbase. the block 50/52s keep visiting, and the iaf will surely rotate as many green/mixed crew through those exercises to spread the learning. and the rsaf crew are really competent and those birds come with the full works, dash hmd and all that jazz. in turn the singaporeans are getting to learn about the flanker. hopefully they’ll bring in their aesa f-15s next.
Nick_76there was a comparison once of one radar which is quite similar to the iafs kopyo (not kopyo-m).
P-2800 grifo-m has a range of 62 km against a look up target, similar to the kopyos 57 km. but the bison is a smaller aircraft..so..
but unlike the kopyo equipped 125 bisons. there are no paf mirages with bvr air to air weapons..at least not publically.
in terms of bvr, the iaf has a huge lead in terms of airframes, experience apart.
-40 something mirage 2000s with super 530ds
-60 something mig-29s with r-27, r-77
-40 something sukhois with r77
-100 something bisons with r-77
now i do hope that almighty MOD of india is sacrificed enuff goats, donkeys and vultures to make those buzzards move faster on their files and india gets its upgrades underway
so that we have mig-29 smts (or whatever the thing is called today), mirage 2000-5 or wotever, and every aircraft gets datalinks (not just the sukhois as it is today). and hopefully a squadrons worth of mkis is added every year.
details below of ze grifo-m :
http://www.finmec.com/GRIFORadar.asp?pdb=GRIFORadar
Quote:
The P2800 Grifo-M is larger than the Grifo-X and uses a more elaborate multi-processor fire control system. It is designed to fit in the radar bay of a Mirage III or Mirage V interceptor-strike aircraft as an upgrade option. It is still more powerful than the Grifo-X with greater look-down range and discrimination through the use of Fast-Fourier-Transform (FFT) Doppler-filtering techniques. There are two versions –the Grifo-M for Mirage-series aircraft, using a circular flat-plate array, and the P2804 Grifo-F, a reconfigured system with an elliptical scanner that fits in the antenna bay of a Northrop F-5E aircraft. Singapore has selected the P2804 for retrofit into its F-5 fleet, as has Brazil.Quote:
Weight P2800 198 lb (90 kg) P2801 121 lb (55 kg) P2803 154 lb (70 kg)Quote:
Range ship with 10,764 sq ft (1,000 sq m) radar cross-section in adverse weather conditions
P2800 60 nm (69 mi; 111 km) P2801 55 nm (63 mi; 102 km)Now for air to air:
Quote:
look-up P2800 198 lb (90 kg) P2801 20 nm (23 mi; 37 km) P2803 25 nm (29 mi; 46 km)look-down P2800 17-20 nm (20-23 mi; 32-37 km) P2803 15 nm (17 mi; 28 k)
The fellows put the weight instead of look up range..but did give look down.. 32-37 km.
Now we know the lookup/lookdown for the 2803. lookdown is approx .6 of lookup, assuming similarly for the 2800 …we get lookup as 62 Km approx.
This is the Grifo M on the PAF Mirage 3…pretty similar performance to IAFs MiG21 Bison.
Bisons could still have the first look advantage vs Mirage 3s on account of their smaller size & RCS, but overall the radars are quite similar.
There are will be some 32 ROSE 1 Mirages with Grifo Ms vs the 125 Bisons..
Other details:
Grifo M is a 200 watt radar with +/- 60 deg. coverage, and 47 cm antenna.
Nick_76Vikasrehman, a view held by Pakistanis is that in the presence of AWACs and BVR missiles, the features of long-range radar and TVC of the Su-30 MKI no longer remain advantageous.
yeah well if they do think that they are smoking some nice stuff if you ask me. because the one thing the iaf will most certainly do is go awacs busting. and somehow, i think that the iaf side will be developing or will have more access to poison pills to do this than the paf will. if u count in ground radars, the iaf has kh-31s and armats and has been practising sead for donkeys years. i dont see no harms in paf inventory. also if the paf has to take the offensive those erieyes cant follow. then they are on their own in flanker land. (i like that term 😀 )
In the same manner, Indian MiG-21 upgrades have HMS and many avionics found on contemporary 4th G fighters. Thus, backed by Phalcon AWACs, they should also be able to engage any 4th G fighter from the PAF or PLAAF. The same can likewise be said of J-7 upgrades of PLAAF, which too are a few decades old.
under limited circumstances to be sure. but ur right in that given the right circumstances, a bison can take on a 4g fighter. provided its the right circumstances and the right circumstances dont get whacked.
coming to other j-7 upgrades, the bison is the only bvr capable mig-21 variant in asia. because those j-7s are not bis derivatives and hence dont have the nose cone to pull off carrying a full sized bvr capable set. even the paf j-7s just have a glorified basic set in them. no true tws and bvr function.
Nick_76Regarding Bison-vs-F16 – While I am not trying to take any sides – does’nt Mig-21 has some inherent disadvantages vis-a-vis F16, which (according to my limited knowledge) are
– A small nose resulting in a small radar antenna (Affecting BVR combat)
– Poor cockpit visibilty and small wings, (Affecting WVR combat)
lets be clear totally, there is no comparison between bison and f-16 in which is a better fighter overall or more modern or whcih has more payload, manoueverability or range.
but given the right employment, a bison can face off against a f-16 and with some good chance of success. its always subjective to some degree but u get the idea, rite?
that is the point. now if the iaf sends unescorted mig-21 bisons on a trip to sargodha afb where they face f-16s..that is nuts. they are asking for trouble. but if the iaf sends bisons on point defence against a f-16 strike package, backed up by offboard information to make sure they can get a silent attack vector or this or dat, thats another thing entirely.
obviously the iaf will try to minimize the bisons shortcomings and maximize its newfound strengths like bvr, wvr with hmcs or secure comms…
now before this upgrade, the mig-21 would have way too many shortcomings vs a f-16 c/d. today, it can take bvr potshots, carry a spj to cover its already low rcs, hit bridges with kab-500s…given proper tactical employment, the bison has a good chance.
thats why the iaf finds it so useful.
Nick_76Related to the size of APG-66 of the F-16, the Kopyo of the MiG-21BISON is considerably inferior due to the physics. A modular system is forever “young”, because you can replace moduls and related software everytime.
the kopyo may be inferior to the f-16 apg-66s last few variants but as far as indian exercises were concerned the general issue was that apg-68 equipped f-16s from japan (cj’s?) were detecting the bisons at approximately the same time, as the bisons were detecting the f-16s. so its a function of rcs and detection range as we all know, and apparently the bisons did have an edge there. now this could have been disinfo, downgraded radar wotever, but even us awacs controllers mentioned that tracking the bison was challenging.
The customer is deciding to which level that will be true and we can exspect to a high degree, that all F-16s will be fielded to the same level as the last variants will be delivered. (The BISON is a similar example!) The numbers of AIM-120*s for the PAF will give a clue about that. For a while the BISON may have had an advantage through BVR-capability against older F-16/APG-66 variants without upgrade to such capability. But even that is not for shure!
Maybe you have some details about that from your intel-people?!
well heres the funny thing, on paper the f-16 should walk all over the bison in terms of radar.
especially an apg-68 equipped variant. but it wasnt that straightforward. now why this happened, is a good question. what i do know is that after cope india 1 & 2, the bison got a huge rep (somewhat bad i think because i want all mig-21s out of the AF asap).
the exercises with rsaf didnt go so well. in those the bisons got knocked about a bit (it was more of an equal slug fest and the iaf went back to the drawing board to figure out why), but the flanker-mkis did pretty well winning all engagements vs the rsaf.
the mig-29s and mirages fared ok. but, forgetting the bison for a moment, the mirages and mig-29s in the iaf are firmly 80’s with some new indian/ oem gear retrofitted but nowhere dash 5 or smt latest standard.
all in all, while the iaf has a healthy respect for the block 50/52 f-16 ..it is not exactly shocked by them.
this is not to say that a PAF f-16 force with amraams and with erieye support is to be laughed at- not at all, its a very very credible and dangerous threat. and the strike munitions that paf are getting with the f-16..they are very worrisome as well.
but in pure fighter2fighter terms, the iaf may have an impression that there are better offers out there in the mrca and thats why some pilots are not so taken by it.
also, the younger pilots are who get excited and taken by the idea of new stuff.. and those guys might be influenced by the pak has f-16s factor but its also true that the gripen, ef , rafale are cooler… the older pilots will want the best system, but are realistic enuff to know that its politics and MOD which will decide for them, and whatever comes, they’ll manage.
Nick_76If so, then i guess Israeli AF (regarded on of the best, if not The Best) will be at an inherent disadvantage against her Arab adversaries, once the latter notices the advantages of flying Bisons vs blk 50/52 Vipers. All these Arabs/Iranians have to do is to get their older mig-21s and other russian systems upgraded on Bison lines, and there goes the Israeli qualitative advantage with the former having a quantitative advantage.
theres more to war than airframes. theres pilot training, and in that the israelis are lucky that their adversaries (bar to some extent the egyptians and syrians) are so poor at war. wont go into the reasons here.
now lets come to the next part, what any serious person would do is analyse how and where the bison would be used and what for.
answer: usual CAS, BAI and in terms of strikes: quick strikes with kab-250/500s against nearby bases and if it faces a f-16 when loaded for a2g its at a disadvantage. however, if its point defense and it is facing incoming f-16s..guess what? the playing field is much more equal.
all in all, the point is that the f-16 block 50/52 is no flanker to wipe the field with the opposition on account of its combination of sensor, payload and range. which translate into the options it can bring to the table.
in iaf exercises, the bison was used as part of mixed packages against f-16s and the usaf pilots repeatedly found it hard to track and engage.
do you think PAF f-16s flying deep into india will have those erieyes helping them?
just a fyi on how those bisons will operate- they will be vectored into r-77 range by the gci and then engage to get the best benefit. once the datalink project comes through, then the targeting info will be on the mfd anyway for the pilots to decide what to do.
good luck to the f-16s then to be able to determine bisons on their flank.
With regard to WVR, well with a decent HMD/off boresight missile, even a Mig-21 could possibly hold its own even against F-22, let alone F-16/F-15.
actually yes to some degree. but its wvr where the combination of aircraft manoueverability and hmd etc make a difference. the f-16 is a much newer and more manoueverable aircraft, and hence it can position itself better for a wvr shot with its hmd.
bvr and wvr are a bit of a mugs game as far as strict terminologies go and the reality is concerned with the bisons role in the indo-pak context. even bvr will be around 40 km at most.
remember, its all about when and where, and then comes how with what.
I second that.
With Bison and better machines already serving in IAF and Viper/Hornet being the pieces of junks as they have been described, IAF is more than capable of handling anything and everything in her vicinity…at least for the forseeble future.
you didnt even read into the context of what was said, and all that sarcasm. a pity that all your effort had to go waste. 😀
lets begin again: as far as airframes go, the f-16 and f/a-18 e/f are nothing special vs the bulk of the mrca competitors or even whats currently in the iaf, bar stuff like the low rcs improvements to the e/f. but i am speaking of pure aircraft flight performance. however, the avionics on the e/f are world class, and the block 70 will have something similar.
may be.
in the meantime, the iaf has no experience with the block 70. what they do know is that the block 50/52 they have faced hasnt been anything awe inspiring. its good but its not that good
and thats the reality. which is why opinions about it, are hardly “omg, lolz i flew against the f-16 1010100”
So why waste so much money on MMRCA? Recently I came across an article about some Indian aircraft tender stating that all the bids were at least 1.5-2 times as much as what MoD had estimated. Same thing goes with Eurocanards…cost prohibitive…as ToT (the sort which India is looking for) could increase the unit price by 60% (according to an executive of one of the aviation firms…a recent article in Defense News).
i would love to read the article because it should wake the MOD up. their miserliness is legendary and very stupid.
as to why india needs the mrca, it does because it is retiring a huge number of mig-21 older derivatives, mig-23s and probably will send a few mig-27s out as well.
its that simple.
Nick_76http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-66
http://milparade.udm.ru/21/38.htmlYou fight a system and not a mark of a fighter. So every claim is questionable, when not related to the elements of such a system.
which further puts the block 50/52 in doubt, since its system was not able to overwhelm a 70s era fighter with 90s era russian avionics.
Nick_76But you started the game didnt you?:dev2:
pssst..what are you feeling insecure about , some guys wanted the Shornet!;)
its the f-a-n-b-o-y syndrome, his toys are the bestest.
the f-16 and f/a-18 e/f are immortal and cant be beat :confused:
someone i know was asked about the f/a-18 e/f. he said its a flying truck, but very reliable and packed with enough geewhiz electronics gear to cause massive problems to the opponent. i think it was a fair statement. when we speak of the f-18 nobody ought to compare its airframe performance to that of the ef. or flanker. or rafale or whatever, but it will give scooter here heartburn. 😎
Nick_76You hit the point. The F-16 is with Pakistan, so it has to be mediocre.
But it seems, that many AFs worldwide have made different experiences with it. Still ordered in numbers by long time user. When it comes along with AIM-120*s it is a hard to beat weapon-system.
why did you overlook the second point, and misinterpret the first? perhaps i didnt write clearly enuff..my mistake then.
if the viper is with pakistan, why would the iaf want a compromised weapons system? believe it or not, it makes a huge difference if the enemy knows the exact flight characteristics of your aircraft? and its easy when you have the same aircraft in your fleet, as compared to sending 2-3 people to a friendly country to learn how to fight it.
second, as i said, its done “middling” in iaf exercises..which means its been ..middling. not anything great or impressive.
flankers have routinely come out on the winning side against the viper. the bisons have done well too in the first series against the usaf, only the rsaf did well with the viper vs the bisons. the migs and mirages, both of which have mid-80s avionics were able to handle the block 50/52s.
now tell me, which iaf pilot is going to be overly impressed with the above?
plus, like i said, everyone knows that the mrca has to be around for the next 40 years in the iaf- they want the latest and the best.
its got little to do with nationalism but is rather, plain logic.
Nick_76The truth is most Aircombat happens at BVR. While, a very “few” types now after 30 years may or may not out perform types like the F-16 in a WVR arena. That type of combat is rare and of course you have to consider pilot experience and other factors into the equation. Personally, I never said it couldn’t be matched. Just that it (i.e. F-16) is still more capable than the majority of its opponents.
bwahahahaha, excuses, excuses, excuses
it was in bvr that most f-16s were hammered in exercises. in wvr, with HMDs and off boresight missiles it stands a good chance.
and just to make you feel special, i have done a scooter. check the thumbs down icon.
Clearly, the word of a Bison Pilot could hardly be considered serious………;)
compared to an armchair pilot who has in all likelihoiod never even been near an airbase…he is the real deal. 😀
man, dont know which world you are living in, but if i am an air force commander, and my upgraded 70’s era bisons can score hits in bvr and wvr on a block 50/52 viper in detailed exercises, and it happens time and again, i for one wont be very impressed with the viper.
Nick_76Pilots do not suffer under a lack of confidence in general. If justified or not is another question in total. Even today a “Zipper-driver” may claim, that there is no threat around, he will not overcome with it. Everyone of the 22 “formula-one” drivers does see himself as the next world-champion. The seasoned ones will give a more balanced view, when not under a nationalistic pressure.
its not a question of nationalism or whatever or even the infamous fighter pilot ego. The fact is that:
a–> f-16s are with pakistan
b–> f-16s have done middling in exercises with the indian air force
the result is that its not considered to be something that makes the average fighter pilots jaw drop. its been around for ages, and it doesnt even have the mystique of the newer euro canards.
Nick_76Oh, please………….the 30 year old designed Viper is still more capable than 95% of the tactical fighters currently flying! (i.e. Blk50/60 & F-16I) A Bison pilot would last about a half second!:diablo:
the best word to describe the F-16 itself in todays world is…mediocre. same as the F/A-18 E/F, its saved by its avionics and weapons package. otherwise, as an airframe, its glory days are past it. dont cry into your flag because I said the truth. 😮
the F-15 is a different story, theres still a lot of life left in that one.
also, the IAFs perception of the F-16 has been shaped by their exercises against it with the USAF and RSAF. its in the class of the Mirage/Mig-29 but its no cutting edge threat. and besides, Pak has it.
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