Nick_76RSM
HALE UAV’s like GlobalHawk have a collosal contribution to make to the field of ocean reconnaisance/marpat. The bigger HALE platforms with more onboard power generation lifting Searchwater 2000MR class multirole radars could be supremely useful for theatre search and, with SAR-spot modes, classification with impressive endurance and, unlike satellites, the ability to circle to maintain a position-of-interest!. Dont see whay you class them as stoopid??.
The Indian Navy is already using its MALE Herons for Mar Pat, and the Israelis will soon follow suit with Herons replacing two manned aircraft currently being used. With the EITAN, the bar has been set even higher, with non US nations developing and deploying HALE systems.
Nick_76this vid is quite old i have seen it many years ago, the Indian Phalcon will much more modern and with new Command Control and Operator Stations…….
Thats not Phalcon afaik, but the American program to combine AWACS, C4ISR etc into one aircraft..
Nick_76I’m not sure Alan Greenspan would agree with you, especially on health care & the impending demographic problems, but what does he know, eh?
Compared to the law and order, demographic and not to mention health care et al issues that are de jure in India, Russia and many other countries, it is chump change.
Oh as for Chinese suppliers- there’s that ‘Firing Squad at Dawn’ syndrome too.
Yeah sure. Especially when everyone is in their pocket and the pork flows both ways. Frankly, the PRC setup is one India should avoid in many ways, even while there are positive lessons to be learnt in some.
Nick_76That would be the all-encompassing, all-pervasive MIC of the US (consolidated after the Cold War), and its constituent representation in Congress (and dare I say it- the White House) that provides support to the hilt and even squanders billions- hardly a model for the World’s largest democracy.
The US squanders billions because it can afford it and it is wasteful at times, but its also true that they have the worlds best line up of cutting edge technology ..a lot of which is directly applicable to what India would require in the coming years, as it too transitions from a manpower heavy doctrine to one more and more averse to casualties.
I’d say China is an interesting model as it expands and modernises its defence-tech/production sector in parallel with it’s civilian industrial base.The arms embargo only increases pressure for indigenisation & efficiency, whether legal (licence production, COTS/dual-use) or ‘other’ means- blatantly reverse-engineered copies. I bet the Russians love the embargo as much as EADS detests it.
I’d say the embargo fosters inefficiency and captive customer syndrome as well. With limited suppliers, the locals get a lot more bargaining power.
I think the Indians are going about things the right way (i.e. 50% offset), if you compare with the recent Saudi ‘purchase’ of Typhoons where the entire support structure will be supplanted with very little economic benefit locally.
The PAK-FA will be a huge leap forward for Indian Aerospace tech. & industry.
The problem is that Indias internal politics are stifled by the China loving left and assorted peaceniks and malingerers who are only concerned with power & $$- this results in repeated sabotage of local programs (funding, manpower et al) as well as procurement delays. Dont like that the Russians got the deal- spread a rumor of corruption. Oh, the Israelis underbid you? Make the Left protest publically against the Israelis…stuff like this..too common/
Nick_76Other air forces – e.g. the USAF – think they can perform all these roles with far fewer types. I don’t understand this desire for so many types. The IAF has too many types, & has long had too many, but instead of rationalising, it seems intent on repeating its mistakes.
I see no justification for different types for the MCA & MRCA. If the MRCA had been what it was originally meant to be, it would make sense, but now that the MRCA programme is running ten years late, I think the logical thing is to scrap it, & instead adopt a programme of purchasing & upgrading any secondhand MiG-29 & Mirage 2000 which come on to the market, & are sound enough to be worth it, to tide the IAF over until MCA is ready, & use the money saved to accelerate the MCA.
Swerve, the IAF is a very conservative institution which, unfortunately, has shopped abroad through 90% of its existence, so is insistent upon getting whatever technology is available from abroad. Its mindset is built around a philosophy of operationalizing systems which have been developed already and only in the past decade or so, has it started changing to some degree, to becoming involved in R&D.
That is a key reason in the MKI-MRCA-LCA decision. The fact that the MRCA will be available ready with limited customization as IAF wants, asap.
I also have to admit, that the IAF was least bothered about long term strategy and indigenization, till the Soviet Union broke up and gave them a wake up call. But even so, theres a long way till the IAF approaches the manner in which the USAF looks within the US for its requirements and supports it to the hilt. Not to mention the funding that has enabled that kind of development within the US. India, after all, is still a developing country with substantial economic issues to tackle.
The MCA doesnt exist in the IAFs lexicon yet. They will not have it till the LCA is delivered and operationalized and meets their needs. Only then will the MCA- be given the Green signal. But the ADA/DRDO will keep getting funded for preliminary design work, configuration studies and even technology development by the GOI till then, and the LCA will serve as a vehicle for several of these technologies.
Nick_76Here is an optimist’s view. The right programmes have been initiated and are going forward, this is the most important thing for the Royal Navy. What we now need is the right numbers. Let’s not forget that with the CVF programme the Royal Navy is returning into the full size aircraft carrier league in which there are very few members (USA, UK, France, Russia and India.).
Some of the more important programmes.
- Two massive new aircraft carriers which each individually are arguably better than the three Invincible – the number of 2 is very certain
- Excellent Astutes that are in my opinion the best SSNs in the EU and among the best worldwide – 4 ordered with 7 or 8 realistically possible
- Darings that arguably have the best AAW radar and missiles on earth right now – 6 ordered with 8 becoming increasingly likely
- MARS – parts of this are being fast tracked, especially the tanker requirement, of which 6 will probably be acquired.
- S2C2 – the escort replacement programme – 18 C1s and C2s have been mooted
- MCMV replacement with OCPVs – 8 are likely as an initial buy
- More C3s to replace survey vessels – total number might be somewhere between 14 and 18
I will be very happy for the Royal Navy if it has following fleet in 2030.
- 2 CVF carriers with F35Bs
- 8 Darings
- 8 Astutes
- 10 C1s
- 8 C2s
- 18 C3s
- 18 Archer patrol boat replacements
- 2 LPDs
- 4 LSLs
- 1 or 2 LPHs
- 20 RFA support ships
- 10 various ships such as HMS Scott
- 4 SSBN replacements
The black antenna radar in the Daring seems to be positioned low. Wont it be blocked by the huge tower in front?? :confused:
Nick_76Farooq,
The MiG-29s, Jaguars, Mirage 2000s will retire as well..even with 6 squadrons of MRCA, theres still a 6 squadron gap of fighters even without the above retiring. If the Govt of India can fund it, theres definitely a case for the MCA..
Nick_76Reducing the number (with ToT since GOI is so vry insistent on it) would undoubtedly increase unit price due to fixed price for various things such as license fee etc. Would it be economically feasible then. If i remember correcly (???) reason for such a huge MKI order in the first place was economic feasibility.
No chance of the number being reduced, in fact there is an option for 70-80 more “if need be”, read PAK-FA delays or whatever reason, though its unlikely to be exercised in entirety (all 80).
The TOT is essential not just from the tech part, but from the POV of spares. In terms of tech, whats essential to the IAF is that all key software, especially the MC and EW software be made available to them so that they can keep the fighter current without running to the OEM each time.
Nick_76Typical of all three parties concerned:
1. HAL – concerned only with production
2. DRDO- concerned with technology
Neither mentions the strategic issues of dual sourcing, or for that matter long term costs.
3. IAF- concerned only about CYA and not really interested in leading a decision. And Nirav was asking for examples about organizational stupidity? If the report is accurate, this is a typical example. The choice of which partner the GTRE goes for is crucial to the LCA program, but the IAF is “largely reticent”, in other words, why dont you two guys make the choice and leave us out of it, but if something goes wrong with either choice, the IAF will no doubt be the first to point fingers while absolving themselves of responsibility.
http://www.idrw.org/2007/10/14/kaveri_engine_for_tejas_more_talks_on_french_russian_offers.html
BY : THE HINDU
The divergent views prevailing over who will help the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in co-developing India’s first combat aircraft engine Kaveri have forced the Technical Advisory Committee (TAC), which is evaluating the two overseas offers, to call for yet another round of discussions between the main protagonists.
Another meeting among key officials from the GTRE, the Indian Air Force and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is expected to be held next week, will hopefully enable the TAC to make up its mind on who — between the French aerospace company Snecma and Russia’s NPO Saturn — will join the GTRE in developing the engine. One of India’s most crucial aeronautical programmes, Kaveri is expected to power the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. Around 300 engines are scheduled to be manufactured.
DRDO sources told The Hindu that the proposal of the Snecma and Russia had been thoroughly evaluated and both were found to be meeting on “most parameters of the GTRE’s requirements.” However, while HAL is keen to work with the Russians, the GTRE as well as DRDO officials are apparently more keen on the going forward with the French.
The DRDO’s preference for the Snecma offer is because it is “offering technology that is slightly superior to what the Russians are providing,” said the source. The IAF, who will be the Kaveri’s primary and probably only customer, has been largely reticent on this issue. However, the IAF is expected to raise the issue when Air Chief Marshal Fali Major chairs the quarterly ‘LCA review meeting’ that will be held in New Delhi on Monday.
The stalemate has further delayed a 19-year-old project that has cost the nation Rs.1,500 crore. In 2005, after insisting for 17 years that it will develop the engine on its own, the GTRE finally threw up its hands and sent out a request for proposal (RFP) from overseas engine houses seeking help.
The GTRE re-tendered the long partnership contract RFP in December 2006, seeking more details. These proposals are being evaluated.
Nick_76whereas the MKIs would not need any additional investment for training/infrastructure ? maybe yes..considering that for these 40 MKIs, HAL will be the one assembling the SKD kits using existing assembly infrastructure and complete production line is already established in India, the cost is probably already amortised over the previous purchase.
Its not just that..its the fact that we are comparing apples to oranges probably…the SH Deal will probably include all spares and components and infra costs/training costs for the 24 new ones, for a certain period, which are being supplied by Boeing, since Oz doesnt have much in the name of SH infra and manufacturing.
In our case, all we’ll be buying are the Russian SKDs (of which a certain % will be Indian so that cost may not be included) plus the spares for those items which may not be indigenized. We are very unlikely to include the bill for all the spares (because at most, only some 20% is likely to come from Russia and even that may be an overestimate). We wont be including the cost of the Indian spares, and rest of support and test equipment will anyway come from HAL.
Also, I believe the reason IAF “sold” the MOD on the 40 Flanker idea is because there was that much buffer built into the system, in terms of infra and all.
So thats why the cost is lower. Not to mention the assembly and integration expenses, which will be lower @HAL.
does the IAF’s new deal include arms or will that be a separate purchase?
Separate I wager. Also, the above doesnt contain the costs asssociated with all the non Russian eqpt, Israeli HUD, French INS+GPS (which is also going to be manufactured at HAL btw)..
Another reason for the 1.6 B figure.
3 new squadrons of Su-30MKIs by 2010 means that some of the effects of the MiG-21s, MiG-23s and oldest MiG-27s retiring will be mitigated..already the dedicated recon task of the MiG-25 is to be taken over by a multi-role Su-30MKI squadron at Bareilly, so maybe 1 to 1 numerical correspondance of retirements vs inductions is not required..although I’d still like the IAF to push the MoD for much larger total fleet numbers.
Yeah well, the MOD is so pathetic in its job, getting any time bound acquisition cleared from them is amazing by itself.
Shouldnt blame the MOD tho’ as much as this Govt, which for political reasons and the desire to avoid the Bofors stigma has made acquisition a farce of the nth order in some respects. The political imperative with which the NDA pushed through purchases in contrast, was remarkable.
I am quite interested in determining whether the IAF has had the brains to order a complete set of 8222 for every Flanker and liberal numbers of IFR, HADF and LDP pods. The former is most important. I hope, inspired by our braindead CAG they havent been stingy with unit price.
Nick_76agreed that the IAF has the infrastructure to support the MKI, but I’d like to see how much the follow on RAAF F/A-18 E/F deal costs them..they’ve also paid up for the training, manuals, spares support, etc. so it’ll be worth seeing how much the RAAF pays for each of their SHs.
Yeah, but the second batch of SHs will come with new spares and training/ infrastructure as well, wont it?
Because the first deal was for 24 Hornets in total.
Nick_76This is the more important news than just the Sukhois imo.
India, Russia resolve differences over armament systems
14 Oct, 2007, 1807 hrs IST, PTINEW DELHI: Ahead of Defence Minister A K Antony’s visit to Moscow beginning Tuesday, India and Russia in a major breakthrough have ironed out differences over cost escalation of armament systems.
In a deal, New Delhi has now agreed to pay an annual cost escalation of five per cent as against 2.8 per cent originally worked out on all arms contracts worked out with Russia earlier.
The deal, according to top defence officials, has paved a way for resumption of supply of fighters, warships, tanks and helicopters which had been held back.
The first major deal to be inked under the new cost escalation contract is for purchase of 40 new SU-30 MKI fighters. The new fighters would be supplied to India by 2010 and would bring the number of Sukoi in the Indian Air Forces inventory to 230.
Under the new deal signed here on Friday by top officials of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Russia’s state owned arms agency Rosenbroexport, Russia has agreed to supply 40 Sukois in semi-knocked down kits at a cost of 1.6 billion US dollars.
Nick_76so you were there at the seminar ?? how can you say for sure what was discussed and NOT discussed ???
I can base my opinion on previous seminars, where I know the level of information that was discussed and how. Unless you cant even understand the basics of what the discussion is about, I suggest you ditch the sarcasm and try to understand the concerns.
Note I said “unless the information is sanitized”- apparently the context and meaning of that statement went above your head at Mach 2.5.
and the underlined part makes the IAF look like an organisation being run by a bunch of idiots ,, who dont know how to run an airforce ,,,
I cant do anything for your personal belief sparked by some straightforward critique and your desire to live in a bucolic paradise thinking that the IAF is an organization that is perfect and doesnt make mistakes from time to time.
If you think that one bad decision about information dissemination translates into the IAF being an organization full of idiots, that says a lot about your attitude towards the IAF.
India & Pak are at loggerheads, and providing any information about the IAF to the PAF should be discouraged, bar high level CBMs about deployments and the like. It is that straightforward. There is absolutely no need to tell the PAF about how any IAF BRD solved the problem of flame tube burning etc with details and stats of where the problems were found (giving a good estimate of what the mission profile is). The emphasis should be on zero information dissemination to the most likely opponent. The IAFs hard won lessons in FS shouldnt be provided to the PAF either.
And if you think that the IAF and AHQ have not made stupid decisions before only to realize them decades thence and then scramble to rectify things later, I have half a dozen bridges to sell you.
i guess they should post a topic out here @ keypub and take your esteemed opinions and then make decisions ?? :rolleyes:
It would be better if someone in the media or GOI raised this topic and had them address the issue directly. As taxpayers who fund the IAF, we are entitled to it.
Unlike you, I dont believe in blind faith about their decisions which can be quite quixotic and political at times.
Nick_76Meanwhile:
Nod for next generation fighter project
NEW DELHI: Concerned over Indian Air Force’s (IAF) depleting force levels, the government has accelerated a plan to jointly develop the next generation fighter aircraft with Russia.
The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has cleared the Fifth Generation Aircraft (FGA) along with the price for an additional order for 40 Sukhoi-30 MKI, said sources in the government. It also approved an aircraft-related joint venture between a Russian company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
The original intention was to clear the proposal around the time of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Russia in December. However, with the project having suffered delay, the longest being on the intellectual property rights (IPR) issue, the government decided to get it off the ground at the earliest opportunity so that both sides could open initial discussions.
The CCS clearance was preceded by hectic activity that included several visits to Russia by senior Ministry of Defence and top HAL officials, who discussed the air staff requirements (ASR) finalised by the IAF. India was also encouraged by the Russian offer to involve it right from the start of the project, whereas that would not have been the case if India was involved with the U.S.-led project.
Indian participation will make it the only country to be involved in a project of this nature. According to Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali H. Major, it will take five years to develop and flight test the FGA and another five before it starts flying. However, the sources said the timetable spelt out by the Air Force chief could be preceded by long discussions on the modalities of the complex and daunting project.
The quick clearance dovetails with the government’s intention to reverse the gradual decline in the IAF’s force levels. Although some aircraft are being given mid-life upgrades, the country sorely requires aircraft that are top of the line and can serve for at least 40 years or more.
With the CCS clearance for purchasing additional Sukhois, India will gradually have about 225 of these heavy category fighters in its fleet.
After getting a brand new fleet in eight years, it would be time to look ahead in the future and that is where the clearance to the project at this juncture will come in handy for the IAF.
So the IAFs getting its 40 additional Sukhois. 230 MKIs by 2014.
Wonder when the proposed MKI upgrades will begin, hmm.
Nick_76Ray,
Agree totally. Its bloody bizarre, thats what it is. The IAF in no shape or form needs the PAFs acquiscence or lessons, we have far bigger and harder fish to fry.
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