Nick_76I hate to repeat that but there are no indications or proofs about Typhoon being second best, if anything like that can be defined at all.
You can define it! You add one point for each time you read second best AA fighter on the inturrnet. 😮
So that gives Typhoon +247,000 points using state of the art simulation tool known as “Google”.
Using this same highly scientific technique, now I know F/A-18 E/F is the most net centric fighter. :p
Nick_76Nick I will take Su-30 MKK or even Mk2 over F-14 anyday. Aerodynamically, avionically they are still superior. This is iran we are talking about. How many phoenix missiles do they have?
Aerodynamically? Debatable, especially when it comes to the long ranged BVR combat scenario.
Avionically they are superior? Broncho, please research the AWG-9 and WCS combination on the Tomcat. You will be hardpressed to find fighters with equivalent performance today, barely a handful come close or surpass it. And Iran is stated to have been remanufacturing/upgrading Phoenix rounds for the past several years.
Nick_76And who do you think is gullible enough to let out real specs? I think IAF has other problems to worry about.
Dont be funny and argue just for the sake of arguement. Are you aware of whats discussed in these seminars? They discuss many real specs, from the flight profiles and performance restrictions on fighters to operational issues at airbases. As Ankush said, its real data all throughout and you can gain a lot of insight into many parameters, from training profiles, to aircraft performance and even crew and airfield usage by trawling through the information.
Its definitely a case for concern unless the IAF sanitizes everything. If they do that, then its ok but they lose out on free and frank interaction with the other worldclass AFs whom the IAF is not going to engage in conflict with.
Otherwise, this is more politics than common sense. And I wish the IAF leaves politics to the politicians and concentrates on warfighting and warfighting alone.
Nick_76What makes you think any operational details will be revealed? Its just a conference.
Aircraft parameters, operational parameters are discussed since they affect flight safety.
Nick_76What do you think, why was it phased out from service? 😉
Spares and maintenance issues were becoming unmanageable.
Nick_76It is a very old plane which even the USN has retired and will definitely not provide upgrades for. If they decide to reverse engineer one, they will need the russians to provide better radar and avionics. Isn’t it better to simply buy a su-30 which is better in every respect. After all irans neighbours have the following : F-15’s, EF’s, F-16 blk 52/60, tornados and mirages-2k9.
If you are comparing it against todays aircraft: fine.
But against many- including early F-15s and including some blocks in service, F-16s bar the latest Block 60..etc, its still a potent threat.
Against the Su-30, the MKI/MKA/MKM variants-ok. Against the others, its sensor + weapons reach is still formidable.
Nick_76Errr still safety is everyones concern.
Yeah, but talking to the PAF makes little sense. The USAF didnt ask the RusAF about the same during the Cold War or vice versa. I wish the IAF chief is a bit more circumspect rather than being so gracious about his services details and so on and so forth.
Nick_76You mean its crazy to expect such strategic vision from MOD?
IIRC I read somewhere France was ready even to integrate kaveri into Rafale.
Not strategic vision on their part but sheer kite flying on your part.:eek:
Kaveri is not even ready and you want it to replace a tried and tested engine on the Rafale. What will happen to the timeline, the modifications to the Rafale, the already high costs?
Please be realistic. 😎
The MOD are a bunch of idiots, but at least you can be more informed.
The MRCA is meant to be a “ready” aircraft with minimal customization for quick induction, and here you are developing an all new aircraft in a manner of speaking. 😮 😎
Nick_76GE has literally billion dollar business in India , IIRC I might be wrong but it is close to around 10 billion dollars. I’m sure spares for IN20 isnt much of headeche at this moment. Thus sanctioning GE is not what India should be worried about, when there is a alternative in the pipeline to follow through but you see Gripen if comes will serve from first to last with GE, thats long term business where economics might change and sanctions might come into consideration.
There can be NOTHING better than Rafale and later Kaveri integrated with it, EW systems integrated in it from LCA to bring fleet commnality like use the Indian IRST which is soon to be available, use it interim with the RBE 2 and directly upgrade it with the AESA under developement by LRDE or elta 2052 whichever MOd chooses earlier.
Rafale with kaveri will also boost Home industry specially the GRTE guys will be in a sound economic position to further endeavour and progress aero engine developement in this country.
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😮 :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Nick_76the Saudis paid $ 8.5 billion for 72 Typhoons and I’m not even sure how much ToT there was in that deal..going by that deal, the Typhoon, although very impressive and probably the most capable of all the MRCA candidates, is wayy too expensive..it’ll be difficult to convince the bean-counters at the MoD even if it stands out in the Technical evaluation. thats where a MiG-35 and a Gripen NG will be most competitive- one can be sure that the total bidding cost will be the lowest with these two as compared to the SH, Rafale or the Typhoon.
AW&ST in article mentioned that whereas the British were dismantling their Foreign Export office, the French were taking it much more seriously and have set up an office just to look at the exports of big-ticket items like the NH90, Tiger, Rafale, LeClerc, etc. If the Rafale sale to Morocco and Libya does’nt come through, it’ll only make them more desperate..I hope that makes a difference to the Dassault bid for the MRCA.
I cant help but point out that just this one purchase would push Rafale exports past any of the other MRCA candidates, so its incredibly lucrative. The Typhoon has a total of 87 export orders, the Gripen is at 56 and the SH could become 48 if Australia converts its options for 24 more. Consider that everyone anticipates that with licence production, the IAF would definitely purchase more of the MRCA type, this one deal could make the winner rake in moolah for a long time to come..
heck, for the Gripen, total MRCA numebrs could even exceed the parent AF numbers, and for the Rafale, they may almost match (234 Adl’A Rafales, not counting the French Navy). for the MiG-35 that does’nt even arise since the RuAF is not even looking at it..which makes me very queasy about it.
So, going by how much is at stake, I’d expect and I’d WANT any of these companies to bend over backwards to win this deal.
Ankush
I’d wager the Saudis got a raw deal from the EG group, partly because the Saudis so love to line their own pockets…and because the term TOT with KSA is a misnomer. Even if they got it, they’d probably hire Americans and Brits to do the heavy lifting and integration, let alone think of manufacturing.
Second, the fighters they’ll get if I am correct, are not what the IAF is going to get. We are being offered Tranche 3 with AESA.
Third, word is that the Rafale/ Dassault team dont think they have much chance in the MRCA Tender and are not really “in the race”. In contrast, the Americans are very aggressive and using every trick in the book, the Russians likewise, and the Gripen team is also being very liberal with the word TOT, a word which gives the MOD goosebumps. Then the EF team has also FINALLY woken up and started a media campaign.
Fourth, cost. I really dont know what the EF will cost for a particular country- Swerve could help us out here.
But if the capability offered is far beyond the others, I hope the IAF makes it a point to push for it.
The problem is that with 230 MKIs, the IAF will find it hard to justify the EF to the jacka$$es who presently run the MOD..per what I can make out..even though I’d love to see an EF + MKI fleet.
I’ve always liked British a/c in the IAF.
Nick_76A pity they didn’t take the opportunity to put an EJ200 in the NG. OTOH, Saab would probably be willing to do it, if India asked – and right now Tejas has almost the same sanctionable US content.
Yeah, but with the Tejas, critical US components are planned for replacement, at least the big ticket items if not the Commercial processors etc. DRDO & partners are working on the flight control actuators, the Kaveri is planned to replace the Ge404 IN20…
I kinda doubt all this is even remotely planned for the Gripen..the LCAs FOC import content (including European) will be at the 30%-40% level. The Gripens is probably that and more. The Gripen NG presentation shows even more stuff from the US.
All the above might be a moot point though if IAF goes for a US MRCA. But word is that as far as the LCA is concerned, IAF wants every ounce of indigenization, including the engine. Otherwise, it’d have been easy as heck for the Kaveri to be put on the backburner, and the Ge404 IN20 be used as the production standard engine.
Nick_76Broncho,
How is the Tomcat mediocre?
Nick_76Bring it on, is the pilot auditioning for a support role in the new hit movie “weird looking bugs from space”? 😀
Nick_76Rafale would be nice.
So would be EF. I like the Gripen NG as well, but too much sanctionable US content!! 😎
Nick_76That is even better than the Su-30 MKI and Il-78 pics! The Venezualan camouflage is much better in aesthetics than the IAF one. 🙂
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