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Pro-Russian rebels stole a truck to transport the missile launcher BUK photographed in the city of Snishne few hours before the crash of flight MH17,the vehicle owner told Paris Match .
http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/EXCLU-MATCH-Un-camion-vole-pour-transporter-le-systeme-lance-missiles-577289
(In French)
Note the picture is not from Snishne ( Snishne does not have trolleybuses ) Donetsk ??
Lukos would you like to geolocate it? we already know your excellent observation skills .;)
Paris Match claims that this picture was taken by their own journalist in the morning of July 17th in the vicinity of Snijne. So a few hours before MH17 crash
They also called the phone number and managed to reach the owner of the truck who told them that the separatists seized most of his truck fleet and occupy his Donetsk facility since july 8.
However, it seems that the picture could have been taken near Donetsk ?
Nevertheless, that’s quite an interesting clue as it comes from an external source.
Battle surprise takes priority over other values,
why didnt USA warn the Japanese when they were about to nuke entire cities of civilians ?
I dont think they just wanted to kill as many children as humanly possible,
but rather to preempt attempts to make the fallout more favorable for japan and less favorable for USA.
ed: come to think of it: were those involved in the nuking of cities ever trialed for war crimes ?
Nuking 2 japanese cities with all their civilians was done in full knowledge of the cause. And I don’t think the US denied their responsabilitaty in this event.
incidentally, that was before the geneva convention.
But it would be more comparable to what happened to MH17 if the US had nuked Zurich and Lausanne by mistake instead of Hiroshima and Nagazaki
If the rebels got a weapon that could hurt the government as long as it was secret,
the priority is to keep it secret until the blow is dealt
Sure they may have taken the risk to use a powerfull weapon system that they didn’t control properly. But Why shoudn’t they be hold accountable for doing so if they screwed up ?
With great power comes … well, you know what
I mean, you can’t just take the potential advantages of an action and dismiss the bad consequences of it if you fail.
On the contrary, it was totally irresponsible for civil aircraft to be flying in a war zone that included the use of airpower on one side and, consequently, the well-publicised use of surface-to-air missiles on the other. It is not incumbent on the parties fighting a war to make life safe for rich westerners who happen to blunder into it, rather it is the responsibility of the Ukrainian government to inform airlines of potentially unsafe airspace, the responsibility of the airline to select safe operating routes, the responsibility of governments to inform travelling citizens of potential dangers, and the responsibility of passengers to be vaguely aware of goings on in parts of the world they are busily flitting over.
I’m sorry but you are reasoning backward
First, “the well-publicised use of surface-to-air missiles” was concerning manpads only. Therefore, the corresponding dangerous airspace layers were closed to civil aircrafts. That did not include the airspace above 30000 ft where MH17 was shot down.
Second, the fact that the people in that plane were
“rich westerners”
is totally irrelevant. What it relevant is the fact that they were civilians flying in a civil airliner in an airspace layer supposed to be safe despite the conflict below.
Contrary to what you assert it is the resposability of the fighting parties not to kill civilians. As far as air space is concerned, it is therefore their responsability to inform civilian organization using their airspace daily which zones are forbiden. Being at war is no excuse and does not magically put your basic responsabilities in a standby mode.
That being said, I agree that the responsability for that tragic event might be shared between several parties.
For instance, if the separatists did it with an SA-11 stolen to Kiev, then the responsability will be shared between the separatists (who call themselves a republic and should have acted accordingly by closing their upper airspace) and the ukrainian government (who should have informed the ICAO of such a threat immediatly).
If the SA-11 was provided by Moscow, then Russia will probably have the biggest responsability share, followed by the rebels.
If Kiev fired the missile then it will be their responsability alone.
Nevertheless, I agree that the International civil aviation organization does have a bit of responsability for having underestimated the potential high altitude threat and the irresponsability of the guys fighting in that area, but this is only a secondary responsability.
That is the ultimate point missed I think. Reason suggests that for (undoubtedly tragic) outside victims to a conflict, the two sides can rarely be held accountable. The plane should have never been allowed to fly over a warzone. NEVER. Why should/would a rebel be able to tell the difference between a military and a civilian plane? Similarly if a trained crew fired at a rebel air asset but made a mistake or the missile went astray and eventually shot the plane down why would they have been to blame? Fighters on both sides don’t expect (outside) civilians in a war zone.
My humble opinion is that there is no one to blame other than the ones who decided to route the flight over a war zone.
my 2c
Whoever fired that missile, it was totaly irresponsible to do so knowing that civilian airliners were still cruising daily in the same airspace.
Moreover it was the responsability of those who intended to use such a powerfull weapon system :
1- to close their airspace or at least inform the international civil aviation organization that they will potentialy shoot at any aircrafts even above 30,000ft.
2- to learn how to use it properly to prevent any mistake
Deterrence usually refers to the nuclear arsenal. How does the Rafale’s EW suite deter conflict? Also, deterrence against..?
The Rafale and the ASMPA missile is the second pillar of the French nuclear deterrence doctrine.
Its credibility relies on the Rafale ability to penetrate advanced Air defense networks to the release point of the missile.
Why should they be mutually exclusive – ‘senior’ software or options for independent upgrades?
They are not. But India simply won’t get what France consider to be too sensitive and could compromise its deterrence tools.
But again, we are speculating here. What India won’t get exactly is impossible to know as it was most probably never brought on the negociation table in the first place.
We are talking about technologies that may not even exist yet. 😀
So… $20 billion+ and write your own software. Awesome.
Just to clarify, we are not talking about the usual software suite here, but about very specific and strategic pieces of code that may be part of the Rafale electronic warfare system. If transfering those could compromise France deterence capabilities, you can understand that it won’t happen.
You just can’t buy everyting, even with $20 billion or $1000 billions
Pieces of kit that are too strategic for a country are just not for sale.
So it would be perhaps 2030 before the IAF’s Rafales can operate at full potential? Longer?
Would you prefer :
$20 billion and use the junior software we have prepared especially for you without any possibility to upgrade it by yourself during the whole life of the jet (+ backdoors so that we can limit it further when we want to) ?
Giving India the ability to put whatever they want in the system and providing the tools to do so is a huge advantage. My understanding is that’s exactly what India wants to do.
There are plainty of algorithm that certainly can’t be transfered because they are far too sensitive.
What can be done however is to provide the tools allowing India to develop and integrate their own piece of softwares/data
guys, this thread gets very difficult to follow :very_drunk:
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lol good one ! :eagerness:
Indian Mirage 2000-5 KT-201 with full mica load on the tarmac of the french flight test center
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So why does it have a datalink? If the IIR seeker can scan a wide-enough area quickly enough to auto-LOAL at close range, then for BVR at longer range, the number of square degrees it has to search is smaller because the angle is reduced and the available time is longer. There is no edge to having a datalink, it’s dead weight unless you need it, and restrictive in extreme EW environments.
Because
1- a missile’s seeker has a limited range (let’s say <15 km) so it will be blind until it is within this range
2- During a BVR engagement, the target has a lot more time to change its trajectory and get out of the seeker gimbal limits
3- In case of multiple targets within the scan volume of the missile sensor, you want to be sure to kill the right one.
Several things. It’s the radar guided version, not the IR version.
This is irrelevant. Besides the sensor, the 2 versions are identical.
Furthermore it doesn’t specifically state that no update was provided after launch but….. it’s not a new thing for radar guided missiles, in fact mid-course update is/was(?) a selectable customer option on AMRAAMs. Radars scan, it’s just what they do.
It does state that : “The Mica used its thrust-vectored motor to perform a 180 degree over-the-shoulder turn and fly out directly behind Rafale 1. The Mica then entered the defined target area ‘box’ and began searching for the C 22 with its own seeker.”
The official announcement on the CESA web site states :
The illuminating Rafale performs the target designation thanks to its radar and transmits the [target] position to the “shooting rafale” through Link 16. The shooting rafale then use these coordinates to set up the inertial navigation system of the Mica EM and fires the missile. [After the 180° turn] the Mica enters in the area specified by the coordinates, turns its seeker on, engage and destroy the target.
No mention of rafale-missile datalink.
Anyway as Tmor rightly stated before this datalink is optional and only used in 2 of the Mica firing modes and LOAL is perfectly possible without it (Mode 2 and Mode 3)
Data link in used for BVR shots, after the inertial phase, to update the target position. It is especially usefull when the missile performed long range loft trajectories which imply that the target may no longer be in the missile’s sensor scan volume when the target is in range of the sensor.
Though it greatly increases the PK for long range engagements, it is NOT mandatory. The mica can perfectly find a target with the last data it got before launch, even after a 180° turn, using its INS and sensor scanning if the target is in the sensor range.
That is exactly what was done during the 180° shot test in 2007 with a mica EM. The initial target data were communicated by a 2nd aircraft to the shooter via link16, but no data were transmited to the missile after launch : 180° turn, no aircraft-missile datalink, missile acquiring the target after launch on its own.
Be carefull with your title,
For a moment, I thought an A-400M had crashed
It didn’t, as pointed out, and it is still required for some missions. Granted, missions for which low-level flying is a must (CAS, battlefield interdiction to a lesser extent) are those that require specialized aircraft to be carried out properly, so Typhoon won’t be doing them, or at least not much.
low level attack profiles are also well suited to cruise missile and antiship strikes.
What business do they have bombing bosnia & libya anyway?
international upholder of the law business
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Apparently the crash happened at landing. Very sad news 🙁