MountainDoes the UK have their retired Jaguars in storage somewhere? They might as well have just bought all of those that had been upgraded to Jaguar 96/97 standard. Not as advanced but at least the work is already done.
Unsure how good the storage is, could be over 7 years outdoor storage somewhere cold and wet for all we know, and that still does not solve the problem of what the Indians do with their current fleet.
MountainRegretfully (because I’ve always liked the Jaguar) I must agree.
The update programme made sense when fist mooted. But it’s taken so long it’s become pointless. Re-engining them with something completely new, at this stage in their lives, & not even discussed the price yet? Doh! Will it ever happen? That’s one example of what’s gone wrong. Rebuilding the existing engines would have been cheaper & much quicker, & almost risk-free. But it was rejected. And so on . .
Agreed, the problem is also made harder that now the French, Brits, Nigeria, and Oman have retired their Jags, no company or Air Force outside India has invested in upgrade programmes or studies. essentially leaving India to start this process by itself from scratch (not an easy task). UK/French plan, new US engine, Israeli targeting pod, Indian avionics. It was always going to be ambitious…..
MountainEven if it could carry klingon stealth devices, if you’re not allowed to have them what good is it?
Nic
I see the point you are making, but Iraq will not be ordering all the weaponry it will use on its F-16s now. The potential capability the Block 52 represents is much much more then dropping bombs. As people have mentioned, you can expect at least the C5 version of the AMRAAM at some point
MountainThis is becoming more and more of a joke. You can’t deliver an UPGRADE program — designed to extend the useful service life of existing airframes — nearly a decade late and hope to gain more than a fraction of the benefits that were first anticipated. This program will not be complete until mid-2020s, by which time the Jaguars will have, what, five years of service life remaining? It would be better to cancel this debacle outright and put the funds into increased Tejas production/development.
Yup, surely the upgrade and new engines on 60 planes could just buy you an additional 30 SU-30s that could easily be inducted into fleet infrastructure?
MountainIndian Air Force plans to upgrade ageing Jaguars hits roadblock
Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-air-force-jaguar-darin-iii-standards-hindustan-aeronautics-limited/1/360143.html
MountainWhat a bunch of hypocrites!
You know perfectly well that AMRAAM won’t be provided until Iraq buys another fighter with an equivalent missile from another country. Since french politicians are US puppets, they won’t sell Rafale, Mirages or MICA (or METEOR), so only Russia remains.
The only chance of Iraq to get AMRAAM is to order a fighter with R77 or SD12 first. So they might as well directly go for the fighter with R77 or SD12.
Brand new block 52 are quite expensive for lead in trainers & LGB dispensers.
Nic
For a aircraft that can carry Harpoon, HARM, Sniper pods, DB-110 Recce pods, advanced EW suites to be called “LGB dispensers”!? WOW.
MountainYes, but the AMRAAMs are not available NOW and for some time and that’s the whole point the others are trying to make. Yes, it is a good plane for their needs POTENTIALLY and if the Iraqis need them ASAP, perhaps they don’t really have time to play to the U.S. tune for e.g. a decade to maybe get some approved. Which they’d have to do kind of anyway as they’re also not allowed to add other weapons without U.S. approval and have to use U.S. contractors to service all advanced systems, not to mention that they’ll also need spare parts.
Regarding the insurgency, it’s a complicated political matter to be solved diplomatically, not through bombing. Besides, they only have rather heavy LGBs at disposal and using them on their cities would not be a popular decision..
I’m aware that ultimately any war/insurgency needs a political settlement, but until that point, sniper equipped F-16s will help save the lives of Iraqi soldiers. Thats simply a fact.
If it is a BVR capability 18 JF-17s with SD-10 or 12 Rafaels with Meteor (if released) would complement these birds very well, but every country knows that once you get into bed with US equipment you accept their terms. That still does not make this a bad deal.
MountainYou will be, the AIM-9M and AIM-7F only have a certain shelf life. I have no doubt that AMRAAM and some form of advanced short range missile will be on the cards in the future. What Iraq is getting currently is adequate to maintain QRA.
I know this is a sore point for you Sheytanelkebir and I respect that your pride has been slightly put out by it but this is a good deal. The F-16 Block 52+ is a modern, reliable and affordable jet to run. It is in service with many countries and that will be the case for years to come.
Totally agree here. AIM-7Fs will probably be replaced with basic versions of the AMRAAM.
This is a good deal for Iraq. Important not to look at this just from an air defence perspective. With Sniper pods and PGMs these birds will help greatly in fighting the insurgency in addition to defending Iraqi air space. Also from a training and maintenence perspective Iraq can be easily helped by the US and its allies in getting the air force up and running, they can send newly graduated pilots to F-16 OCUs in the US, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan or Jordan for example as opposed to using its limited fleet for such tasks.
Mountain“Preliminary findings suggest that the plane encountered wake turbulence generated by the leading aircraft. It seems the aircraft was flying too close to the plane ahead of it,” the source said.
He added human error couldn’t be ruled out as the pilot could have avoided the leading plane’s turbulence by re-calibrating flight path
MountainNot sure if the mock up is to scale. Plus that’s probably a 6 foot pilot compared to a five foot girl (they’re short in China).
Sorry to sound pedantic, but how did you figure that a guy with no flight gear, in a blue jump suit and carrying some chocks was a pilot?
MountainAll possibilities are investigated in crash investigation. Here’s an example. The IAF’s investigation will proceed on the same lines. Shiv Aroor’s tweet doesn’t tell us anything that we didn’t already know.
The rest of the quotes mention the strong likelihood of human error. Again, a known factor, especially considering the mission the squadron was training for (special operations/low level ingress).
But what none of those actually do is support your claims – poor training, lack of experience, difficulty coping with a new aircraft, modern-trainers-something, etc.
You wanted sources, I gave them. Mentions “breach of flying discipline” being a possibility. That certainly falls under pilot error and/or training. Play with words as much as you want, but western and indian media is reporting that as a possibility, you wanted proof, I gave you 3 links.
MountainHad you limited your response to – ‘its a very reliable aircraft so there’s a strong likelihood of pilot error being responsible’ – there wouldn’t have been an issue.
Instead you engaged in wild speculation – the pilots not having the ‘experience needed’ and finding the transition from the An-32 to the all glass C-130J ‘too much’ – aside from making an irrelevant connection to the need for modern trainers and now insinuating that there might have been discipline issues.
The crash investigation will examine every aspect of accident, from the pilots’ family life, to the activities occurring on ground in the region before the aircraft entered the vicinity. Please post your source if it claims that there’s an unusually high focus on a possible ‘breach of flying discipline’.
Posted all the links, please let me know if you need any more info, or indeed help with Google.
MountainThe issue isn’t pointing out it could have been pilot error, the issue is this douche has an obvious Anti-Indian agenda and can’t even be bothered to put a “RIP” in a thread about 5 people losing their lives.
I guess his Pakistani inferiority complex is kicking in, gotta prove something anti-IAF in ever thread he gets a chance to.
I’ll reply to sensible posts.
MountainDon’t club them together. Do you have any evidence suggesting or has any Western/Indian media source pointed towards ‘poor training’ as a cause?
“Shiv Aroor is defence correspondent at Headlines Today, doubling up as a primetime anchor weeknights at 10PM on India Reports.”
Shiv Aroor @ShivAroor Mar 31
As details are awaited on the C-130J, a breach of flying discipline between the two formated aircraft is being weighed as a possibility.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_04_01_2014_p0-676551.xml
Senior officers at Gwalior air force base in central India, to which the ill-fated C-130J was headed, say the aircraft may have stalled in a steep turn at low altitude, giving its crew no time to recover. Eyewitness accounts included in the air force’s preliminary crash report suggest the aircraft may have grazed a low hill
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-pilot-error-probable-cause-of-iaf-hercules-crash-1973980
The preliminary investigation into an ‘unusual’ crash of IAF’s Hercules transport aircraft has strongly indicated ‘human error’ as the most probable reason for the crash. And the Indian Air Force has ruled out possibility of a serious technical snag in the crash of one of the world’s safest military aircraft with four engines and other high end technology.
Do let e know if you need anything else.
MountainIn Your first post here:
You could have picked the IAF thread on a total different ocation, but noo..
Here you pick this thread in particular. Where You pointed out nonsens about poor IAF training capabilities. Just days after the crash.. and you do not find this unrespectfully and distatefull!!? What planet are you from?
And you point about transition from the An-32 to C-130J are so hard due to Glass cockpit and four engines. Which is not correct as well.
So let me just clarify what you are saying. There is no chance that the accident could be caused by poor training or human error and that even to suggest as such is “nonsense”?
Also, when should feasibly ask questions about the cause of an accident if not straight after the accident happened? In which case the entire western and Indian media is being “distasteful”. It appears on other threads or with the accidents of other nations it is fine, but not on an IAF thread.
And you call me mad…..
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