Hi Glenn , I wished you had made it to IFR , its the same time when i had met Maz , I agree with what you say , But of all things Gun is a major hurdle , I think even the best naval gun in the IN fires to a range of 22km on Talwar not good enough to soften costal targets , considering that ships will be closer to coast and vulnerable from Air and costal launched AShM attack , Only the US has thoses 5 inch guns firing those ERMG rounds out to 60 miles , and their new DDG(Zamwalt) will have guns firing out to 100 miles + , thats some thing , To soften costal targets from safe range you will require a gun which fires atleast 50 miles plus , I dont know for Sure if Russians or Europeans are developing such guns , the best the europens have for export is the OTO-Mellara Super Rapid gun firing 120 rounds per minute out to 20 + km.

U R missing the Italian 127mm OTO Melara Compact kanon , the British Vickers Mk8 4.5in , the French Creusot-Loire T100C and the Russian AK-130-MR-184 (plus the newest 130mm single mount, old and new 100m mounts)

By comparison, as a comment on the sorry state of the Dutch navy:

Cocaine cache found on Dutch drug patrol ship (Doorman class M-frigate Tjerk Hiddes)
“I’m not going to speculate about how the drugs got there, or who put them there”

The common factor is Hate…blasphemy spreads hate among those negativly affected…same goes for Holocaust…as a jew I’m sure you’ll get very emotional if someone comes on your face and denies holocaust.

Lets not forget it is this Hate that’s the Feul of Extremists on both sides.

It used to be blasphemous to say that the earth was round. What hate is there in that?

Aren’t there any cartoons of non-muslim prophets? If there are, who made them, for what purpose and why are we not seeing offended persons of the affected faiths/religions protesting loudly?

Regardless of how silly it is to deny the holocaust, to make it a crime to voice that opinion flies in the face of the claims that these countries have true freedom of expression.

It is only made illegal because ardent supporters of the regimes that committed those crimes still exist and try to deny that a crime took place, thereby abusing the right of free speech. The holocaust example is not good because it ties too closely with the Western/Eastern rift and religious differences Christians, Jews and Muslims. I think a comparable example that is much less value laden is the example China/South-East Asia v Japan.

IN the US the borderline is between whether or not free speech is used to incite to violence:
I hate cabbage > free speech > legal
Cut up all cabbages > hate speech > illegal
(substitute your own least favorite veggies or people)

The list of European countries in which it is a crime to deny the holocaust is surprisingly long :

* Austria
* Belgium
* Czech Republic
* France
* Germany
* Israel
* Lithuania
* Poland
* Slovakia
* Switzerland

Would you like me to remind you what the British press did when Prince Harry wore the swastika while dressing up as a German during some highschool party of his?

How exactly are blasphemy and falsifying history related or even remotely similar?

Or, to put it in the form of a question, suppose you were chinese, wouldn’t like to see the law of Japan say that it is illegal to deny that Imperial Japan committed attrocities in Manchuria (China), Korea and other occupied areas during WW2, including medical experiments and experiments with biological and chemical weapons on civilian population. Bet you that you go to jail in China if you say in Japan didn’t do this.

Don’t get me wrong, insulting someone’s religious beliefs is not a smart thing to do, and also not a considerate thing. But it is not illegal in the countries in question and generally speaking the law of a country reflects the values held by that society. If you don’t like the law, you can always go into politics and make a difference.

Sounds reasonable then. I just seems odd on a ship that cuts corners to save cost in many respects.

Not to me, since designed for low RCS it would be silly to subsequently give oneself away by high thermal, sound or EM signatures

Will P17 be build in India or we are procuring all 6 or 8 from russians?

How much of an improvement or advancement is P-17 from P-16? Why arent we looking at building bigger destroyers like above 10,000 tons ships in this class?

Three P17s are building in India at this time. The vessels will feature a CODOG (COmbined Diesel Or Gas Turbine) propulsion plant featuring two General Electric LM 2500 IEC (Integrated Engine Controls) Marine Gas Turbines and two S.E.M.T. Pielstick 16 PA6 STC diesel engines driving two Controllable Pitch Propellers (CPP) through two Renk gearboxes.

The Talwar class has the following main Machinery: a Zorya/Mashproekt M7N.1E gas turbine plant which comprises of 2 x DS-71 cruise turbines and 2 x DT-59 boost turbines in two engine rooms.

• The cruising component consists of two DS-71 gas-turbine engines (each rated at 9000 hp, forward running, and 1.500 hp in reverse), two cruising RO63 two-speed gearboxes and one cruising R1063 auxiliary (cross-connected) gearbox which makes it possible to use any of the cruising engines to drive both propeller shafts. Ratings at ISA + 15 air temperature.

• A boost component with two DT-59.1 gas-turbine engines (each rated at 19,500 hp, forward running, and 4500 hp in reverse) and two RO58 single-speed reduction gearboxes. Ratings at ISA + 15 air temperature.

All the engines & gearboxes are referred to as L (Levyy) and P (Pravyy) sets except for the R1063 auxiliary (cross connection) gearbox. In Russian, Levyy means Left and Pravyy means Right. So, there would be a DS71L, RO63L, and DS71P, RO63P and so on. Mashproekt Scientific & Production Enterprise of Ukraine manufactures the Zorya-designed gas turbines and reduction gears.

P17 (Shivalik class) is a big jump ahead in capability in all aspects compared to P16 (Godavari class) and even P16A (Brahmaputra class).