WanshanShe’ll probably be ready before the Vikramaditya, which is quite the irony.
I’d love to know where the Chinese are sourcing all the specialised equipment necessary for this work. Boilers, steam turbines, flight deck materials, aircraft take-off and landing aids, arrested recovery systems… even for its own carrier India will likely have to import these from Russian firms, but there’s no news about any such transactions for the Chinese.
Domestically (e.g. boilers, turbines) ad – very likely – Ukraine (original yard). Possibly also Russia.
As for possible sources for India, do also consider UK, France, Spain, Italy and possibly South Korea and maybe even Japan (all these countries produce LHA/Ds and/or small carriers)
WanshanAlthough I do not see what will be the FC radar for the new 9M96 on Pr 22356 , Orekh or some new system ? Unless the export variant has Shtil-1 VLS SAM and not the 9M96
One of the pics of 22356 model clearly shows 4x Orekh, thus suggesting Shtil-1 VLS SAM on the export model (which could make sense, considering these are used by e.g. IN and PLAN).
Wanshanwell, the hull was also supposed to become a casino :p:p:diablo:
Well who says it won’t be? It will be the best armed casino I know of, but still …. 😉
WanshanWell I’m expecting Type 730 CIWS as well giving her a mixed missile and gun point defences setup. I wouldn’t be surprise if they fitted some VLS and HQ-16 medium range missiles.
Wouldn’t surprise me either: there is deckspace for 4×1 8 cell VLU, though one has to consider that these spaces originally reserved for VLS were for the 9M330/1 missile (Tor/Klinok), which is 2.9m long. HQ-16 is similar to the 9M38 (Buk/Shtil), which is 5.55m long. The question is whether there is sufficient depth available below the original VLU locations to accommodate the bigger missile and deeper VLU.
WanshanIn modern US Navy carrier air operations, a carrier strike group (CSG) normally consist of 1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 Guided Missile Cruisers, 2 Anti Aircraft Warships, 1-2 Anti Submarine Destroyers or Frigates and sometimes a submarine. That’s 8 ships at best.
A typical U.S. Amphibious Readiness Group consists of 1 LHA/D, 1 LPD and 1 LSD. In addition, there may be some escorts i.e. 1 Guided Missile Cruiser, 1 Anti Aircraft Warship, 1 Anti Submarine Frigates and a submarine. That could make another 7 ships. Though in most cases, the ATF will be deployed under the protective umbrella of a carrier strike group (CSG).
34 ships would suggest 2 carrier groups plus 2 amphibious groups.
WanshanI am not so optimistic. I used Navsource along with Balancer’s forum (the very best place for Russian Navy info, phenomenal source) to compile this general picture:
Sovremmeny (Project 956):
Boyevoi: In reserve/needs repairs/return to service extremely unlikely
Burny: Inactive/Undergoing repairs?/soon to decommission?
Bystry: Active
Bezboyazenny: Inactive/Undergoing repairs?
Gremyshyi: Active?/In reserve?
Bespokoiny: Active?/In reserve?
Nastoychivi: Active
Admiral Ushakov: Active
Rastoropny: In reserve/Overhaul?
Yes, they are letting the Sovermenny’s go, but not the Udaloys.
WanshanGood pics,do you know waht SAMs will be used? Tor?
The name of the system is REDUT-K. Target acquisition is by the FURKE radar. It is the navalized version of Vityaz SAM system. There will be 12 x 9M96 missiles (40 km range with Active Radar Homing) or 48 x 9M100 (10 km range with IR homing- lock after launch) or a mix of the above 2 misiles (each 9M96 can be replaced by 4 x 9M100)
The 9M96 is a dual-role anti-missile and anti-aircraft missile, the smallest missile associated with the S-400 system which in navalized form is called KREPOST (Fortress). Only about 350 kg for the 40 km short range version and 450 kg for the 120 km long range version. The smaller 9M100 missile is designed for use against aircraft, UAVs and cruise missiles.
WanshanHow hard would it be to simply take the Oto Melara 127/64 LW and scale it up 155/52? The 127/64 LW is a matured system, 155/52 ordnance is available. What is is the nature of the problem?
WanshanA pic about the second Project 20380 corvette ‘Soobrazitelny’, it looks like use new VLS system at former Kastan’s postion
yup, that’s a 12 cell VLU. See here for some nice art work on this.
WanshanThe Admiral Gorshkov has a displacement of 4,500 tons, a speed of 29 knots, a range of 4000 nm at 14 knots, and endurance of 15 days.
Wanshanhttp://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/10/19/2010101900683.html
In addition to the 214 class subs, Korea already got 9 209-class subs.
I supect those 3000 ton subs will be replacing the 209s
WanshanOSK] participates in the exhibition “Of [evronaval]-2010”
On October 26 in France, in the suburb of Paris with Le Bourget began the exhibition of Naval technology and armament “[Evronaval]-2010”.
On the stand joint stock company “united ship-building corporation” ([OSK]) it presents the best export models in the underwater and above-water ship building.
Key export projects [OSK] – multipurpose diesel-electric submarine “Amur -1650” (development [TSKBMT] “ruby”), the destroyer escort of project 20382 “Tigris” (development [TSMKB] “diamond”), the multipurpose frigate of project 22356 (development “northern PKB”) and the small rocket (artillery) ship “tornado” of project 21632 (development “Zelenodol’sk PKB”).
Furthermore, in the exhibition take part “Average- Neva shipbuilding plant”, “admiralty shipyards”, “[PSZ] amber” and “[Sudoeksport]”.
Within the framework the measures, timed [k] “Of [evronavalyu]-2010”, for Russian delegation one must conduct a number of negotiations and conclude supply agreements of military equipment. Exhibition will be prolonged until October 29.
26.10.2010
http://www.setcorp.ru/main/pressrelease.phtml?news_id=31815&language=russian
WanshanWanshanThe 22nd Euronaval’s is held at the Paris-Le-Bourget exhibition center from 25 to 29 October 2010. (i.e. this week) …
If there is anything more to that 22356 that just a model by the design bureau or yard, please note the model shows the ship would equipped with 4 Orekh missile directors, which suggests VL Shtil as the main SAM (3×12). There appear to be 2×8 VL AShM/LAM, and no SAM’s visible on the Palma CIWS mounts. It uses Fregat MAE for surveillance, Mineral E target designation radar for AShM and 5P10 for gun targeting. That makes it comparable to Shivalik (has 1 extra heli plus 2 RBUs and VL Barak, but 8 fewer VL for AShM/LAM and fewer, non-VL Shtil) and Talwar (has missiles with Kashtan plus 1 RBU but 8 fewer VL for AShM/LAM and fewer, non-VL Shtil). Not clearly superior to these designs and probably inferior in comparison to 22350, which is expected to carry a lot more newer armaments and sensors. It also suggest the basic 2235# design has a degree of modularity. I don’t see IN buying this considering they get domestic P17, unless yard capacity is insufficient and the need for new ships high. It might also be a reasonable backup option for FRS navy (analoguous 052B/C).
See also http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5985238
WanshanAccordingly to an new released at Euronaval’s News, the export derivative of Project 22350, referred to as Project 22356, has an hull 135 meters long and a standard dislpacement of 4,550 tons, meaning a full load displacement around 5.000 tons.
Provided the two versions share the very same hull, Gorshkov class is going to be a lot larger than the Krivak family and still remarkably larger than Talwar class.
Maybe they used the very same arrangement for machinery used in both Krivak and Talwar classes, but there should have been a huge redesign effort and at 15 days endurance it seems to be a little bit short legged for such an hull.
Maybe after the launch could some more comprehensive spec be released about it?
The at least partially Talwar-based Indian P17 (Shivalik class) is 142.5 metres long, with a beam of 16.9 metres and a draught of 4.5 metres, and it displaces 5,300 tons standard and 6,115-6,200 tons full load.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active/190-Project-17.html
Naval Technology lists displacement 4,600t standard and 5,600t full load.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/shivalik-class-friga/
As compared to the project 1135.6 (Talwar class) which is 124.8 metres long, with a beam of 15.2 metres and a draught of 4.5 metres, and which displaces 3,620 tons standard and 4,035 tons full load.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active/180-Talwar-Class.html
Naval Technology says 3,850 tons (standard), with tange 4,500 miles at 18kt and endurance30 days
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/talwarclassfrigate/specs.html
As compared to the project 1135.1 ‘Nerey’ / ‘Menzhinskiy’ / ‘Krivak-III’ class patrol frigates of 123.5 x 14.2 x 4.72 metres and 3,670 tons full load displacement. The project 1135M ‘Krivak II’ is 123.1 x 14.2 x 4.6 meters at 3,420-3,505 tons and 1134.2 ‘Krivak I’ is 126 x 14.2 x ? meters at 3,675 tons
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/europe/ukraine.htm#surf
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/russia/surface.htm
Meanwhile, the only reference I managed to google on ‘project 22356’ states:
Like any other carrier, the Vikramaditya will be used within a task group of surface ships. The best candidates for such groups are Russian-built Project 22356 frigates and upgraded Project 61 vessels supplied by the Soviet Union.
Since project 61 is the Kashin class (Rajput class in IN), this leads me to believe the article is really talking about the project 1135.6 (Talwar class), i.e. it’s a typo or error of sorts.
Global security lists the following for project 22350 (2235.0): Displacement 4,500 tons, Dimensions : 132m length x 16m beam. Naval Technology lists 130 x 16 m and states:
In July 2003 Russian Naval Command approved the basic design of the frigate. It was developed by FSUE Severnoye PKB (Northern Design and Development Bureau) in St Petersburg. The design is based on the Talwar / Krivak IV class frigate developed by Russia for India and incorporates stealth technology….They have operational ranges of more than 4,000 miles … endurance 15 days
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