As for 127th claiming no SAM losses…here’s an interesting pic:

I made that claim?!?! Hmmm, my apologies for your misinterpretation of:

Does anyone have any sources of SAM systems being destroyed in 99′? I can’t even find NATO sources claiming to have destroyed any. I’ve got/found articles about destroyed radars, fighters, barracks….etc. But no SAM systems.

Question isn’t really how many launchers there…its how many radars are actually operational.

Djnik, Ink, Slobo, please tell me someone has a copy of the article by Janes? by the Serbian MOD to Academy students. It was specifically about the radar upgrade program that they finished and is now fully operational and digital! Please tell me one of you guys has it!

Is that picture of a sa-3 goa? I can’t tell b/c I’m too worried about finding sources of sa-6 systems being destroyed.

Does anyone have any sources of SAM systems being destroyed in 99′? I can’t even find NATO sources claiming to have destroyed any. I’ve got/found articles about destroyed radars, fighters, barracks….etc. But no SAM systems.

Here’s another article on the AD forces just around the time of Allied force:

NATO strikes blunt Yugoslav air defences

——————————————————————————–

The following appraisal of Yugoslav air defences is extracted from a longer feature – “NATO strikes blunt Yugoslav air defences” by Seymour Johnson, carried in the April issue of Jane’s Missiles and Rockets.

“Responsibility for the Integrated Air Defence System (IADS) is split between the Yugoslav Air and Protective Defence force (JRV i PO) – a largely volunteer force – and the army (VJ). The JRV i PVO is responsible for the chain of early-warning radars and the network of command, control, and communications equipment dispersed at sites around the country; fighter aviation; and the bulk of heavy and medium SAMs (including fixed sites). The army controls some mobile medium SAMs, associated sensors and mobile command units; and organic air-defence assets including most short-range and man-portable missile systems, plus self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery (AAA). The whole system is well netted together (including fibre-optic links) and has a degree of redundancy and ‘graceful degradation’. Some of the early-warning radars and SAM sites are protected from anti-radiation missiles by the use of locally produced electronic decoys. The best-defended sites are those with strategic military value, including government, army, and security police headquarters; the industrial infrastructure; major population centres; plus ports and airfields.

The JRV i PO controls the following ground-based air-defence forces, which were upgraded in the mid-1970s. Some are reported to have received further upgrades, most recently last year. At the outset of hostilities, fixed SAM sites included eight battalions of Soviet S-75M Volkov (SA-2F) with 60 launchers, and 15 battalions of S-125 Pechora M (SA-3B) again with 60 (mostly quad) launchers. At least a proportion of the ‘Low-Blow’ target-engagement radars associated with the SA-3 system are equipped with a 25Km range TV camera which provides the fire-control team with the same data as would be available from the radar. These TV trackers were added as part of continuing local improvements by Fotona, a formerly Yugoslav company based in what is now the Republic of Slovenia.

There have been reports of unspecified recent upgrades carried out to the JRV i PO S-125 systems but this cannot be confirmed. Russia, China, Poland and Ukraine all offer improvement packages for the system, while a Yugoslav upgrade and overhaul package incorporating digital sub-systems including digital MTI (moving target indication) is marketed for export by Yugoimport-SDPR. The FRY has some limited autonomous capability in the field of defence electronics (including radar and guidance systems), electro-optics and rocket propulsion – a capability which NATO has targeted during the recent strikes.

The operational status of the Soviet S-75M Volkov (SA-2F) systems is unclear. One source claims that that prior to the threat of hostilities these were in the process of being retired or relegated to a training role. The funding needed for a digital subsystems upgrade (such as the Russian ‘Defence Systems’ Volga-M package would have placed too great a strain on scarce operating and maintenance
resources.

At the Defendory ’98 exhibition, Yugoimport-SDPR (Y-SDPR) promoted its upgrade for the S-75 which included digital MTI, a logarithmic receiver and improved control and recording equipment. It was unclear from the company’s literature whether or not it had been funded by the FRY defence ministry to carry out this particular upgrade work on JRV i PO S-75 systems, but there was a clear implication that the company had had experience of service life extension work on the S-75s and had investigated the cost-effectiveness of a digital upgrade for FRY systems.

On the eve of hostilities the equivalent of a reinforced SA-6/SA-11 regiment was believed to be in Kosovo, with 24 transporter/erector/launchers (TELs) deployed at six locations. While the local terrain favours concealment of mobile systems it also complicates their movement and makes siting for optimum coverage problematic. According to a Russian industry source, the JRV i PO and the VJ deployed between them 68 SA-6 three-round TELs at the outset of hostilities together with appropriate sensor and support vehicles. Additionally the Serbs either acquired (or acquired the ability to produce) new warheads, fuzes, sensors (in the form of TV optical trackers and new radar modes) and other electronics (including a digital MTI system and a new continuous wave [CW] transmitter) for an undetermined number of their SA-6 missiles. Against a target of certain specified characteristics this reportedly extended the maximum effective engagement range from 20 to 24km, doubled the engagement ceiling to 14km, reduced minimum target altitude from 100m to 30m and halved the radius of the inner dead-zone. Other improvements covered increasing the clutter rejection factor, improving ECCM capability and survivability in a lethal SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) environment, and increasing reliability. Some, if not all, of the SA-6 systems now incorporate TV optical trackers, as do some S-125 systems.

Since Yugoimport-SDPR has marketed improvement packages for the SA-2, SA-3 and SA-6 which includes a thermal imager and laser rangefinder, both boresighted with the TV tracker to allow range measurement with passive tracking at night and in poor weather, it would be very surprising if this modification had not been incorporated on as many systems as possible once the threat of NATO air strikes had emerged.

US intelligence sources now say that a very few early-model S-300PT (SA-10) SAM systems had been delivered by Russia before the arms embargo took effect, although a Russian industry source disputes this. In any event their operational status appears doubtful, although Rosvoorouzhenie has stated publicly that it could immediately supply the FRY with S-300PM/PMU systems if the Russian government gave the go-ahead.

Both the 9M38 Buk (SA-11) and the 9M330 Tor/9K331 Tor-M-1(SA-15) systems have been shown on Yugoslav TV, apparently operating in the local countryside. Although there has been independent confirmation of small numbers of the 9M38 Buk being in the JRV i PO inventory, the possibility of an elaborate FRY Government-sponsored ‘disinformation’ operation cannot be ruled out, particularly over the Tor system. If either weapon is in Yugoslav service, it is likely that the numbers actually deployed may only run to single figures. Transfers from the air-defence forces of sympathetic republics within the CIS would be the most likely source of supply. Some sources claim that the S-200D Angara (SA-5 ‘Gammon’) long-range surface to air missile is deployed around Belgrade. This seems unlikely.

As the weather clears and more battlefield air interdiction missions are flown over Kosovo, the organic air-defence systems fielded by the army (VJ) and interior ministry police (MUP) will take on a greater importance. These include some 9M33M Osa-AK (SA-8b), 130 9K31 Strela 1 (SA-9), plus numerous examples of the SAVA (S-10 M2J) local modification of Strela 10M, some 9K35 Strela 10M (SA-13), plus the Tor systems mentioned above.

In early October 1998, a number of sources reported that Russia had supplied Serbia with additional air-defence equipment, in violation of the arms embargo. According to these reports, a small number of 2S6M Tunguska gun/SAM (Ghs-6-30K 30mm/9M311) tracked air defence vehicles were transferred illegally to VJ organic air-defence units.

Although intelligence sources confirm that this was not an official sale carried out with the overt approval of the Russian Government, Jane’s Missiles and Rockets understands that there is evidence to suggest that both hardware and know-how may have changed hands. A source familiar with the often unauthorised and unexplained movement of conventional armaments from and within the republics of the Former
Soviet Union (FSU) notes that: “such are the levels of poverty and corruption within the armed and security forces of the FSU, the economic anxiety and uncertainty within the defence industries, the interests and influence of organised crime so pervasive, and the levels of profit from such a ‘deal’ so lucrative, that they make such transactions such as this an increasing and inevitable fact of life within the CIS.”

The majority of the Yugoslav self-propelled SHORADS (short-range air-defence systems) are likely to be employed in support of ground operations in and around Kosovo. They will be supplemented by man-portable air-defence (MANPAD) missile systems including approximately 300 9K310 Igla-1 (SA-16) and Strela 3 (SA-14) and over 500 SA-7 variants. The latter include the locally produced Yugoimport-SDPR Strela 2M/A which features the largest warhead of any Strela/Igla variant.”

(source: Jane’s Missiles and Rockets, April 1999)

Are you sure about the number of Sa-6 systems currently in service?It seems quite high to me

FAS reported that The Serbian AD:

They included eight battalions of Soviet SA-2 SAMs; six battalions of more modern SA-3 SAMs; fifteen regiments of antiaircraft artillery; and a network of early warning radars and command, control, and communications equipment dispersed at sites around the country. The SA-2 is a semi-transportable system deployed at fixed sites, while the SA-3 [and more recently deployed] SA-6 and SA-11 are mobile systems. The SA-2 and SA-3 are old, but have a high ceiling. The SA-6 is a very effective medium level missild. It has already been used in anger in Bosnia and was the weapon responsible for shooting down USAF Capt Scott O’Grady’s F-16 in 1995. As of early October 1998 three of the Yugoslav SA-6 missile batteries were deployed in Kosovo, at Pristina and Djakovica and at a new site east of Glogovac.

In addition, the large strategic SA-5 GAMMON long-range surface to air missile is reportedly deployed around Belgrade, though this deployment is not mentioned in many descriptions of Serbian air defenses, and the status of this system is uncertain.

In addition to these large anti-aircraft missiles, the Yugoslav Air Force air defense units are also said to employ the tactical SA-9/13, which employ the same missile — the first is mounted on a wheeled chassis, the second on a tracked chassis. Other reports also suggest the presence of the tactical SA-14 and SA-15 systems, although the current inventory and operational capabilities of these forces are highly uncertain based on unclassified sources. A variety of single-shot shoulder-launched man-portable short-range systems, such as the SA-7/16/18 are also reported in teh Serbian inventory. These missiles are similar to th eUS stinger and the UK blowpipe/javelin, and the SA-16/18 are the latest and most capable.

Reports of the deployment of the modern SA-10 air defense missile remain unconfirmed. Considerable variation exists between the reported destinanation countries of exprted Soviet air defense missiles, and the reported inventory of such missiles in Serbia [which is seldom mentioned as a destination for missiles that other reports claim it employs]. In early October 1998 it was reported that Russia had supplied Serbia with additional air defense equipment, in violation of the arms embargo. According to these reports, the Serbs acquired new warheads, fuses and radars for their mobile SA-6 missiles, giving them an extended engagement range.

There is also maps and charts of the quantity and locations of these systems; The link no longer works to FAS Serbian AF so I had to use my hard copies to post this. Sorry for any gramatical mistakes.

Missile Range-km Launcher
Inventory
Sa-5 Gammon 250 some
Sa-2 Guideline Dvina 45 40
Sa-11 Gadfly 9K37M1 Buk-1M 28 ?some
Sa-6 Gainful Kub 20 70
Sa-3 Goa ZRK S-125 Neva 20 60
Sa-15 Gauntlet 9K331 Tor 12 ?some
Sa-13 Gopher ZRK-BD Strela-10 5 numerous
Sa-9 Gaskin 9K31 Strela-1 4 numerous
Sa-14 Gremlin 9K34 Strela-3 4 numerous

Current Sa-2 locations include:
Subotica
Novi Sad
Belgrade (also the Sa-5 is reported to be deployed here)
Valjevo
Kragujevac
Uzice
Nis
Podgorica

Also does anyone know what the last photo represents?

It looks like a compression chamber. I wouldn’t know what weapons testing chamber would need glass?!?!

Heavy news if true – 50 billion dinars amounts to 731 million USD.

Do you not think that’s enough? An additional USD183 million a year for the next four years is great. Right? That is what we’ve all been waiting for isn’t it?

It seems to me that the context of this announcement does not bode well. During a break in the discussions with NATO huh? Sounds like somebody wants to sell some kit and is willing to put pressure on the SCG army to buy it… Well thats my first impression anyway. I may change my mind once I’ve slept on this one.

You just needed to get some sleep. 🙂 It’s just another break for sides to consider the other sides views. Whatever happened to the Mile Dragic deal and the deal for Israels satelite? At the beginning of the trial of the previous MOD, criminal action was being taken against him; but after his closed door testimony, he was set free.

Just a single Mig-23. As far as I know it hasn’t flown for years. Now it’s just sitting at the museum.

Does anyone know, did that Mig-23 ever receive the overhaul it was supposed to get?

So the agreement was to overhaul only one MiG-23? That doesn’t make sense. I was under the impression that there were more migs that came over to be overhauled. :confused:

Here is the article by Milavia News with more specific data about how the MiGs are to be upgraded. It seems that the deal is already a deal and now just needs to be executed.

23 February 2006 – Serbia-Montenegro to Modernize MiG-29s. Back To Headlines On February 9th, The Chief of The General Staff of Serbian and Montenegrin Armed Forces, General Ljubisha Jokich, announced that the his country will definitely overhaul and modernize its five MiG-29 fighters (four single-seat MiG-29 Fulcrum-A and one two-seat MiG-29UB Fulcrum-B) in Russia. He revealed that the project for overhaul and modernization of Serbian-Montenegrin MiG-29s is planned to be performed in two phases. The initial phase, that is expected to begin soon, will include sending two MiG-29 jets to Russia, which will return to Serbia and Montenegro in about eight months. Following the completing of overhaul and modernization on the initial two aircraft, the second batch of aircraft, comprising the remaining three MiG-29s and one An-26 Curl transport plane, are going to be sent to Russia. According to General Jokich, the work on the second batch will be completed in six months.

Speaking about his country’s plans about MiG-29 fighters, General Ljubisha Jokich said that the level of modernization of the best Serbian-Montenegrin fighters is still part of the negotiations with the Russians. However, he was quite precise in claiming that around 40 percent of the work will be performed by Serbian-Montenegrin Air Force Institute Moma Stanojlovic. On January 19, Serbia and Montenegro Minister of Defence, Zoran Stankovic, revealed that his Ministry has secured 10 million Euros for the planned overhaul and modernization of Serbian-Montenegrin fleet of five MiG-29 fighters, as well as for overhaul of one An-26 Curl transport plane. He did not explain what kind of modernization is planned for the MiG-29 fighters but it is believed that it will be very limited, equipping the planes with NATO/ICAO-compatible communication, navigation and identification equipment, required for participation on NATO/Partnership for Peace (PfP) exercises.

A number of Serbian media agencies have recently announced that the overhaul of Serbian and Montenegrin Air Force MiG-29 fighters is one of the highest priorities of Serbian-Montenegrin Ministry of Defence and is scheduled to begin during 2006. The reports suggest that all five MiG-29s have been recently inspected by Russian specialists at their home base at Batajnica. The RSK-MiG specialists have completed in-depth analyses of the Fulcrums that have survived the NATO-intervention in 1999 and now Serbia and Montenegro Ministry of Defence is waiting for the official Russian proposal on the cost of returning these jets into service. The proposal should be based on the provision of most of the MiG-29s overhaul work to be carried out at Serbia-Montenegro’s Air Force Institute Moma Stanojlovic located at Batajnica air base, some 20 km north-west of Belgrade. The Government in Belgrade believes that the MiG-29 overhaul could be a good chance for restoring the once very prospective Air Force Institute and keeping it alive until Serbia and Montenegro joins NATO and EU when this facility could become increasingly more interesting for US and European aviation industry.

According to well-informed Serbian sources, apart from the overhaul issue, the Serbia and Montenegro Ministry of Defence will also receive offers from RSK MiG for supplying the Serbian-Montenegrin Air Force with additional second-hand MiG-29 fighters, as well as for upgrading the current Serbian-Montenegrin MiG-29s to a more advanced standard, thought it is hard to believe that the Ministry of Defence could afford money for such investments because of its poor budget. Instead, it is more realistic to expect that Serbia will only opt for overhaul and return into service of its five MiG-29 that have officially ceased flying on April 1, 2004. In the future it may be possible that additional MiG-29s will be purchased or received as donation from a friendly country. The idea is again to put into full-strength the Serbian-Montenegrin Air Force’s only MiG-29 unit, the 127th Lovacka Avijacijska Eskadrila Vitezovi (127th Fighter Aviation Squadron Knights) of the 204. Lovacko Avijacijski Puk (204th Fighter Aviation Regiment) operating within the Korpus Protiv-Vazdusne Odbrane (Air Defence Corps).

The Knights have lost 11 MiG-29s (ten single-seat MiG-29 Fulcrum-A and one two-seat MiG-29UB Fulcrum-B) in the air and on the ground during 1999 when, because of the crisis in the south Serbian province of Kosovo, Yugoslavia came under NATO attack during Operation Allied Force. However, Serbia and Montenegro is now seriously considering to increase the number of operational MiG-29s in line with its intentions to provide its own air defence as well as to fulfill overall international obligation to participate in the Partnership for Peace (PfP) exercises as a step forward to future full-member status within NATO. “Slovenia pays Italy 60 million Euro a year to guard its sky, and its territory is several times smaller than ours. So you should multiply this sum by three or four to see how much it would cost us to have our skies defended by someone else?s air force”, 204th Fighter Aviation Regiment Commander, Colonel Nebojsa Dzukanovic said. He believes it would cost about 20 million Euro to overhaul the five available MiG-29 fighter planes, in order to, at least for a time, enable efficient control of the country’s airspace, in line with the overall international obligation. Colonel Djukanovic also reveals that due to the lack of airworthy aircraft and jet fuel, fighter pilots log less than 10 hours of flying per year, which may create problems to Serbia and Montenegro and prevents it from participating in the PfP and NATO programs requiring at least 150 hours per year.

In line with expected-to-begin Russian overhaul of Serbian-Montenegrin MiG-29s, that all have been bought by former Yugoslavia back in 1987, Serbian media recently revealed that a contract has been signed in 1997 with unidentified Belarusian company for overhaul of two MiG-29s. Reportedly, the realization of this contract failed due to political reasons. Also, it has been now confirmed that in 2003 Russia has offered Serbia and Montenegro overhaul of its MiG-29s to be paid by compensating the Russian debt to Belgrade. At that time, this option was considered unnecessary investment by Belgrade and was promptly rejected. Now, the MiG-29 overhaul is again on the table, thought this time Belgrade could be asked to pay for it.

Most experts in Belgrade believe that keeping the MiG-29s in service is far better solution than investing in the old and less-effective MiG-21 fighters. Moreover, they are convinced that MiG-29 days are anyway counted and in the foreseeable future Serbia and Montenegro will need to initiate process of replacement of Soviet-era fighters with some more-advanced multi-role Western-built aircraft. Source: IGOR BOZINOVSKI

Now, in the article, it says that the initial 2 migs will take 8 months to return to serbia, and that the last 3 will take 6 months. Does this mean that they are to recieve more/better upgrades than the last 3? Or does it mean that they are in worse condition than the last 3?

Also, the comment on receiving additional migs from friendly countries. They are referring to Bulgaria and Romania right? Maybe even Belarus? Well, I asked this question b4, but how many migs could we get from them? The Bulgars seem to want the Hornet as a replacement to the Fulcrum; so does that mean we get their functional Migs after procurement occurs for the Hornets? How many migs does romania have sitting around?

How many new airplanes and helicopters do we need?

By taking in the accound future security risks and missions set forth to the AF and AD,our assumption is that one squadron of multi role airplanes will be able to perform these duties.

What is the SiCGAF standard squadron size going to be? The traditional 16? Or are we going to have a fully armed squadron of 24 aircraft? (If you don’t know, than don’t speculate please) I don’t care about what they can afford; b/c after all we’re talking about 2010-2015; I care about what the MOD’s stance is.

127TH KNIGHTS, you need to buy me a beer for these photos

Anytime bro! As long as it’s coors lite or coors lite. Yes, I can be a hilljack when it comes to drinking beer. I’ll also buy Niksic, Jelen, and Carlsburg for my friends. Great Pics by the way!

Oh shut up Kapedani. Albania and Kosovo are a total embarrassing shambles and the KLA killed more ethnic Albanians than any other nationality and you have the cheek to make snide comments about Serbia’s government?

Eeeeeaaaaasy Rod! You don’t want to lose your cool with this guy now. You’re a role model to the rest of us Slavic murderers remember!?!? :diablo:

As I said half of Europe was supplied with batteries from this complex. Ever saw what was inside that Renault you used to drive?? Go check…

Half? Interesting? So what happened to half of Europe during the 90’s? Renault went out of business? Everybody used trains? Harry Potter teleported you to school? Or did you borrow his broomstick?

I just told you the source…its a book published in YUGOSLAVIA about the Trepca mine complex…from its earliest history in antiquity till the time the book was published (early 80s). Its in Albanian…as the purpose of such books was to be send around to respective countries ministries for advertisment…so this ended up in the Albanian counterpart…where my dad would get ahold of it…so I could read it.

I await you to ask me the source for the third time…as I’m sure you will.

Is the educational system in Albania in that bad of shape that when you see a book it’s THE book and you don’t know what it’s called? Does this book have a title, author, publisher, year published? Interesting how Yugoslav sources are so well respected by our friend kapedani, and yet Serbian sources are not. :confused: ah well, ignorance.

The earth is round…”no its not…your just prejudice!”

To be prejudice, you have to hate a certain group of people. It’s obvious that you hate everyone! including but not limited to russians, greeks, albanians that sympathize with the truth…

The earth is round…”no its not…your just prejudice!”

Don’t over exagurate, nobody said you’re prejudice; we all called you a rascist! Please, read the posts b4 you go making snide remarks.

Does this guy ever get tired of taking it in all three holes? :diablo: