127TH KNIGHTSI think the answer is political. Russia was a dictatorship for a very long time. Syria still is while Serbia was under the power of nationalists for a very long time and started several wars.
Not so much nationalists as opportunists. Remember, these guys were staunch “communists” until the fall of the berlin wall. then they became socialists, and then nationalists, and now capitalists as part of a democracy. oi vey, and yet the political scenes have barely changed faces there.
127TH KNIGHTSDjnik,
are there any current photos or drawings of Slatina? I’m sure the US didn’t just leave the base as is! The drawings you have came from FAS right?
Trepca mines were the most important resource in all of Yugoslavia…yet the people working there…were the poorest in all of Yugoslavia. Something was off…
Yeah, or the Bor mining complex, or the hydro power resources, or the oil and natural gas fields in eastern Vojvodina.
If they actually get anything new…they advertise it….becasue its the first new thing they’v gotten in 15 years.
Don’t hide it, divide it! Why don’t you pass those drugs on to the rest of us. 15 years? So according to you, the last plane they got was around the same time your parents were busy concieving you huh?
And as you say inherited, well kosova has always been self-ruled pretty much. The only time you had full control over it was after 1981. So, its more of a complex political issue
If we’re going to talk about kosovo, lets talk about it in a technical matter. Even if you don’t mean it to be offensive, I find your remark extremely so. It’s an extremely complex political, military, economical, religious, and social issue.
There’s nothing there. Oh wait I frogot…venik wrote there were Sa-11s and S-300s at Slatina which after having shot down 40 NATO planes were hidden there…and thats why the Russiasn rushed in to save that equipment. I forgot about that one…lol
There you go again with Venik! Did anyone else mention Venik?
Im glad they didnt destroy it. Its a good base and a lot of money has been invested into it. Dont forget, some of the money that went into it, wouldve been from the Kosova money industries too.
There was a saying once amongst people in Kosova which i think you might relate to
“Trepca se radi, Beograd se gradi”That doesnt mean that some parts of Belgrade should be destroyed too.
Regardless of the fact it’s a good looking base or not, it should have been destroyed by the Russians. There has got to be a reason why FRY didn’t destroy the base. No conspiracy theories, just logic and common sense, but why was it so important that the Russians took the base? Sure, TAX MONEY. That tax money belonged to the government, not the kosovo industries. Does the tax money I pay belong to Uncle Sam, absolutely not. I slave away so Commander KooKoobali can insert our troops in the next international quagmire. Oh, and thanks ahead of time for not bringing up kosovo again.
127TH KNIGHTSGive the Yanks access to a base and you even get freebies. The US does look after its customers as long as you stay on their good side.
They already have access to a base. Slatina airbase is in Pristina and is one of the “superbases” built in the 80’s. It has hardened bunkers, tunnels, and storehouses in the mountainside as well as two 3000m long runways. I believe it’s one of the 10 largest airbases in Europe?!?! And definitely one of the (if not THE) largest in the balkans. It has space and accomodations for 4 or 5 squadrons, their crews, maintenance, and AD needs (space, crews, radars, etc.) Djink – Ink, do you guys have an exact ratio of Slatina’s size in comparison to European Bases?
127TH KNIGHTSNB (for everyone not as prejudiced as Kapedani): The Serbian members of this forum are not members of any collective group and behave like individuals with their own (frequently differing) opinions.
That is a bold statement ink! Everyone here knows that we’re secretly members of the black hand, gather together once a week at our local shriner meetings, and are plotting the overthrow of the evil west with an assassination which will lead to the third world war! :diablo:
127TH KNIGHTSfantastic website djnik! Great shots and info!
127TH KNIGHTSSlobo, just give up on him. Even though I blocked him…everybody else keeps copying and pasting this guys posts. I mean, we all know he’s a moron, so just drop it. I DO want to hear about everything you have to say, b/c that’s how you learn…so send me stuff, here or via email. That includes all you guys.
127TH KNIGHTSvoistenu vaskrese unatsi!
127TH KNIGHTSBTW Does Serbia still have sanctions?
Not since 2000
127TH KNIGHTSInks stats?? I said 80%…and that came from a statement made by Serb officials about their defense expenditures…and from what Ink writes…that is not only more than likley…it has to be. Way more than half the budget goes to salaries and “regular activities”. What about toilet paper??
What official stated that 80% of defense expenditures go to salaries and the such?!?! You’re making this up as a you go! If you cant’ provide documentation…leave it.
127TH KNIGHTSInk…I didn’t say SALARIES…I said personel. Keeping people in an army requires a lot more than just a salary…so my statement of 80% stands.
No, it doesn’t stand AT ALL! What are you talking about???? I don’t see 80% anywhere in Inks stats.
Serbia’s GDP is 28 billion…Albania’s is 18 billion (even though we’r 3 times smaller in population). Our budget is going to be 2% of GDP by 2010…whe our budget will be as big as yours now.
You telling me that albania’s gdp is gonna grow by 40% in less than 4 years? You’re kidding right?!?
“Lagging behind its Balkan neighbors, Albania is making the difficult transition to a more modern open-market economy. The government has taken measures to curb violent crime and to spur economic activity and trade. The economy is bolstered by annual remittances from abroad of $600-$800 million, mostly from Greece and Italy; this helps offset the towering trade deficit. Agriculture, which accounts for about one-quarter of GDP, is held back because of frequent drought and the need to modernize equipment, to clarify property rights, and to consolidate small plots of land. Energy shortages and antiquated and inadequate infrastructure contribute to Albania’s poor business environment, which make it difficult to attract and sustain foreign investment.” (Cia Factbook)
GDP – real growth rate: 5.5% (2005 est.)
note: Albania has a large gray economy that may be as large as 50% of official GDP (2005 est.)
Budget: revenues: $1.96 billion
expenditures: $2.377 billion; including capital expenditures of $500 million (2005 est.)
127TH KNIGHTSThese prices are really general…they pretty much apply to all aircraft of a 4th or later on a 5th generation.
127TH KNIGHTSSo eliminate a 95-year old flight training tradition just like that? What if in a few years, we fall out of favor with whoever we chose to do our training for us? No thanks! Yugoslavia’s flight training program was top-notch, we trained pilots from Lybia and many other countries. This is one thing we don’t need to pay someone else to do.
Besides, our AJT’s are also used as strikers so you can’t eliminate the G-4’s. You could claim that a new multirole jet could take over the G-4’s strike duties, and that’s true, but like I said in my previous post, a new multirole jet would be too valuable to be risked like that, the much cheaper G-4 is better for that role.
I agree that we shouldn’t get rid of the training program. But it is an option and it would eliminate a lot of expenses. There is always the threat of close ties being cut off, but that could be years upon years later down the road. By then, an appropriate training program could be rebuilt.
A new multi-role jet would be too valuable to be risked in a strike role. A strike role that you envision. These aren’t balkan strategies that we’re talking about. Top notch aircraft/crews against balkan AD’s. If serbia didn’t have SAMs to target high flying aircraft strikers, do you think Albania or Croatia do? Knock out their limited AD in a short amount of time, just like nato wanted to do to us. Most AF’s constitute 20-24 aircraft per squadron. Yugoslav and consequently Serbian squadrons only had 14-20 b/c the strategy was to spread out the Af as much as possible to avoid a decisive strike against our assets by the Soviet Union or NATO.
I’m really glad that we’ve got the lowest rate of all balkan countries when it comes to % of GDP. $600 million last year out of a $30 billion GDP. 2%, not bad at all. Oh wait, CIA Factbook says albania’s was $56million! Out of a GDP of $18billion! That’s 00.27777777777777777777777778%! Man, am i glad we don’t have to rely on charity or drug smuggling to buy tampons for our special forces. Tampons are cheaper than gauze…i mean, you’ve got to have something to pack their wounds with.
Aside from the initial purchase of 24 Su’s, initial training, and missiles/spares ($850 million) what are the other costs?
1. Fuel $33 million for 150 flight hours per crew a year.
2. 2 simulators for 18 hours of “flight” time per week per crew 10 million? Would you need more simulators? or one less?
3. $5 million a year in salaries to all Sqaudron related personnell? 80 techs, 20 specialized techs, 24 pilots, 24 navs, 25 logistics staff, 25 intelligence/prep officers, 25 senior officers and squadron leaders? 250-300 personell per squadron?
So, we’re looking at $50 million for the maintaining of a 24 plane squadron a year? + the initial cost. I don’t think that any country has every (maybe us), has ever paid for it’s purchases up front. Unless you got all 24 planes at once, there’s no reason to pay for them all up front.
And once again…how much air time is 5000 tons of jet fuel?
127TH KNIGHTSFrankly I have to agree with Kapedani (this is probably a first!). Talk of Su-30s and PAK-FAs etc is wildly exaggerated and optimistic.
It’s ok, we all still love you and don’t think any less of you! :diablo: He can say intelligent things when he really really wants to. I think all of this talk about the Su-30 is mostly in regards to hey, if in the next 4-5 yrs. we were to get new fight aircraft, which would you get? You also have to keep in mind that Serbia has yet to privatize over $15billion worth of highways (corridor X & VII), $960million Mobtel, $1billion dollar Telecom Srbija, The Railway network, the satellite comms systems, NIS, EPS (both have Merrill Lynch doing their prep work) and a slew of other gov’t businesses that I haven’t even mentioned.
In my opinion, a new look Serbian airforce** would have to fulfil the following roles:
1. Traditional air policing role, i.e. interception of peace-time incursions into the countries air space.
2. Conventional arms deterrent, i.e. be on a similar level in terms of capability as the airforces of neighbouring countries who could, in some future scenario, become threatening, in order to deter them from military solutions.
3. Be capable of supporting the army in a variety of different ways. The airforce should be able to support army or MUP actions in anti-terrorist operations as well as in conventional armed conflict should such a need arise. Under this requirement we can include all kinds of reconnaissance.
4. Provide experienced personel who could form the core of a larger force should resources and requirements arise that would facilitate the expansion of the airforce in the future.
I don’t think your roles are expansive enough.
1. First and foremost, being able to not only defend, but take the offensive and control the airspace of a possibly unfriendly neighbor. Why have an airforce at all if you can’t use it as an offensive arm? Defense? You might as well have just purchased more SAMs.
2. Precision strike capabilities are a must in todays warfare. Even if you only have 1 squadron of capable fighters for the entire country, make each dollar count. Again, don’t even bother spending the money on aircraft that will just get destroyed or that you have to hide so they don’t get destroyed.
3. Participate in PfP program or at least exercises with other non-aligned countries. What are you going to use in joint exercises with Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Czech Rep.? Galebs? Even if the are G-4Ms :rolleyes:
I do however agree with your number 4 the most out of all your and mine points. BTW, how much air time is 5000 tons of jet fuel on our planes?
First of all, both of these aircraft are unsuitable (read: overkill) for our security needs. Serbia is a small country and we simply don’t need aircraft designed to operate across the vastness of countries like Russia, India and China. Some sort of new-built MiG-29 (the M2 would be a favourite) in small numbers would be much more suitable. Also, none of our neighbours are buying large numbers of fast jets, heck, Serbia’s most likely threats* (Croatia and Albania) may not even have any fast jets in their future plans. Also, Serbia does not have many distant foreign obligations that would require advanced combat aircraft – even if we had them, would we really send FLANKERs to Haiti?
The late variant MiG-29s have a Air Superiority combat range of 963 miles and a ground suppresion combat range of 683 miles. The Su-30 has a “combat radius 1500 km (932 miles) on a hi-hi-hi- interception mission with four AAMs”. (Vital Guide to Military Aircraft; 2nd Edition; Robert Hewson) It seems that “overkill” may not be a problem at all considering they have the same combat distance but the su’s combat performance is much better. Personally, I rather have a Russian fighter that hasn’t lost any dogfights to western counterparts, than a Russian fighter that’s come out 0-bizzilion (i don’t know how many mig-29 variants have been shot down.) I didn’t know it was cost effective in the long run to lower our expectations to that of our enemies? Wouldn’t it be more expensive to fight a drawn out war on the ground w/o sufficient air support than shell out the money to knock out their troops from the air? No one said fly Flankers to Haiti, We were talking about the Super Flankers and terminators that are going to be supporting ground operations in developing countries in support of our imperial Republican allies in the white house [sarcasm] LOL hahahaha :dev2: The Il-76 was a transport we mentioned that it might be good to have one for international roles.
As for neighbors not getting anything advanced… I’m not too sure about that. Bulgaria is very interested in the Super Hornet. Croatia is very interested in both a late model F-16 and the Gripen.
I keep reading that! Doesn’t sound like our neighborhood is gonna downgrade to the neighborhood watch anytime soon. Still need the swat team around.
As for the claim that a single squardon would be enough. Yugoslavia operated dozens of squadrons of fighter jets. I know, I know, Serbia is smaller. But still, if our new fighter jet is to replace the J-22, Mig-21, and Mig-29… That is about ~40 J-22’s, about ~40 Mig-21’s, and 5 Mig-29’s, that’s 85 aircraft that need replacing. Do you really think a single squardon of 12 or 14 aircraft can replace 85 aircraft without a VERY significant loss of capability? Assuming we replace them with a ratio of 1:2, we still need a minimum of 40+ aircraft. I know this is not something that is economically feasible tomorrow, but in 2015 why not? Until then the Mig-21’s, Mig-29’s, and J-22’s will have to do.
Even 24ish airplanes would be enough for a air superiority campaign. Another 24 for the advanced trainer/ground attack role. Hell, skip the advanced trainer, send the pilots for training to a foreign country, and just keep the 24 advanced fighters. You just cut out the cost of upkeeping a training fleet. What’s another 24 crews in addition to Russia’s, or China’s, or India’s thousands and thousands of crews? 24 planes totla??? Even WE could afford that in 4-5 years!
We do not need more than a squadron for air defence as we,as our neigbours are going to purchase a similar quantity.And lets hope there is no more war.
My friend: “only the dead have seen the end of war”, “pray for peace, prepare for war”, must I go on? “Sigh”, it’ll never stop…just as surely as the sun will rise and set tomorrow, the middle east will always be a conundrum of messes, and all Serbs are born stubborn, there will be another war. And another after that, and after that one; another will follow. “sigh” As long as man is man…….
127TH KNIGHTSGreat post Djnik! I saw that a while back. Does anyone know what informational linkage system they use? How does the AF and AD correlate their joint defense? I know that Serbia finished it’s first digital topographic map of the country in 2003. I’m assuming they use this to keep track of friendly forces locations and the eventual goal is to have real time tracking of friendly tanks, IFV’s, APC’s, Artillery, SAM’s, aircraft, etc…
127TH KNIGHTSI dont get your point though why the ground control radards would need to be changed?We already use western TPS-63 and TPS-70 radars.
It’s my understanding that when Greece began purchasing and then upgrading it’s F-16 fighter fleet under the Athena I, II, and III programs, ground radar surveillance equipment had to be changed/upgraded to fully function with the new digital information processing systems on the airplanes. (I’m using Greece as an exmple b/c they are still upgrading and acquiring Air Force equipment and they’re easy to relate to.) Again, we could have 3 squadrons of F-22 raptors, but in this age of warfare, not having the proper informational link between: radar stations – air command – AD SAM units – individual AD SAM systems – Airplanes – Army AD units/systems would be a waste. I guess what i’m trying to say is, we’d have to bring all support systems up to par. When did we purchase the TPS-63 and TPS-70? Mid eighties? How many systems do we have? Thanks
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