alexz33At least you recognised my typing error. 86>96
The incident is not used by me to demonize Israel. We discuss the behavior of the IDF and here of some few soldiers (officers) only. So none blame the IDF in general, most of it is ok. Like in every big organisation not all stick to the rules ever. Sorry we did a terrible mistake, when that very art. unit and its commanders did not stick to the rules. To avoid the political damage, just a cover-up of real events was started at first. Other soldiers have full understanding, when something was an error really. But cheating other officers and being caught by that umdermines much more than the credibility of those involved directly.
A criminal is allowed to lie, but higher IDF officers?
There is a saying: “The fish starts smelling from the head”.The mistakes and crimes of other are another topic.
As i post i’m listenning to Israeli Army radio show with Jacob Ami Dror
a senior military intel officer. His topic is the influance of intel officer and
the decion makers and the ethics of war effecting soldiers and civilians.
He is using examples from his expirience, WII, gulf war and the sabra
and shatilla assacre. Man i wish you could understand hebrew.
alexz33The incident is limited to the single mortar firing from 13:45 from a location 220 metres SW of the centre of the compound. The ari-fire was to the relief of the Israeli squad under that fire. Hezbollah and IDF ignored the presence of UNIFIL. Both have to take the responsibility for that incident. But the “error” and source of fire is limited to the IDF. Israel claims that Hezbollah does not take care about civilians in Northern Israel and is right about that. The other way around Israel does not care of the civilans in Souther Lebanon too.
See the number of casualtis on both sides about that. This is called terror.Wrong behavior of US-forces in 1983 is no excuse to be wrong again in 1986.
The BM-14s are limited to ~ 10 km range. That was the reason why Israel kept a security-zone in Souther Lebanon of ~ 10 km depth. To reach Northern Israel Hezbollah had to penetrate the Red-line. They received heavier BM-21s too ~ 18 km range. Today Hezbollah pocesses numerous rockets with much further range. But that very incident was 1986.
To avoid misunderstandings. Israel has the right of selfdefence. But you were thoroughly teached about the Geneva conventions and restrictions in the regular army. (IDF) That differs a regular soldier from an insurgent at first.
The thorough research from the UN showed, that the Israeli explanations given about ari-fire into the UNIFIL compound were not the truth. Why did some IDF-officers lie about that.
Your vain attempts to to demonize Israel are becoming my entertainment.
Limiting the incident to one single event and ignoring the rest so
that your previous post wont look like a total lie is priceless.
I appriciate your attempts to revise history to fit your bizzare agenda but
The incident took place in April 1996 and not 86. So be a man and faith …
LOL.
With US killing tens of thousands of innocent civilains in their recent campaign, would clasify their mission as a terrorist one?
alexz33You know very well, why you did not. Because it will show that your last sentence is wrong. All happened inside Souther Lebanon. Fire of mortars is limited well below 10 km and is used at around 5 km distance. Qana is ~ 15 km from the Northern Israeli border. Be ashamed about that incident and do not look for wrong excuses. It does not help you out, but undermine the credibility of Israel further. Blind support of the own country can lead into desasters as many Europeans learned before.
So be a man and faith the truth. Take a good map and read your link carefully. As a trained soldier you know how to do it. After that please think about, how was I informed about that by my own people.“(a) In the early afternoon of 18 April, an Israeli patrol had come under fire emanating from Qana. The precise location of the patrol was not given, except that it was close to the “red line”, which is a line on Israeli maps that marks the northern edge of the Israeli-controlled area in southern Lebanon. Mortar shells had fallen as close as 40 metres to the patrol, which had requested assistance. The Israeli forces had initiated rescue fire procedures.”
It saddens me that you didn’t bother to read the entire UN report
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un/s1996337.html
which i provided you and then have the nerve to claim I’m covering up
for Israel.
According to that the UN report the hizzbullah fired rockets and mortars.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un/s1996337.html
(a) Between 1200 and 1400 hours on 18 April, Hezbollah fighters fired two or three rockets from a location 350 metres south-east of the United Nations compound. The location was identified on the ground.
(b) Between 1230 and 1300 hours, they fired four or five rockets from a location 600 metres south-east of the compound. The location was identified on the ground.
(c) About 15 minutes before the shelling, they fired between five and eight rounds of 120 millimetre mortar from a location 220 metres south-west of the centre of the compound. The location was identified on the ground. According to witnesses, the mortar was installed there between 1100 and 1200 hours that day, but no action was taken by UNIFIL personnel to remove it. (On 15 April, a Fijian had been shot in the chest as he tried to prevent Hezbollah fighters from firing rockets.)
Qana is about 15 km from the Northern Israeli border, which makes well
within range of the Katyusha’s.
How exactly defending Isreali soldiers and civilians became awrong excuses?
at last we didn’t shell them with 16″ guns like some did :rolleyes:
alexz33Is use of weappons allowed when trying to protect civilians?
I didn’t go and measure the distance from Qana to Israel but it’s not far.
Any rocket fired from there will hit northern Israel.
alexz33The point I have been trying to make in this thread is not that Israel deliberately goes after civilians/allies/peacekeepers, but that they really don’t care if it happens.
The difference is that the Russians thought the civilians inside the school was worth as much as themselves.
I know that this is often the case, but it is not an excuse. Even if dead civilian Arabs doesn’t worry you it is hurting Israel’s reputation in the world.
Dead civilians defintly hurt Israel’s image and it’s something that is a high
priority not only in the Israeli army but in the Israeli society. Sadly many
of israel’s enemies use this to their advantge. This is not to say that induvidual cases of brutaly and theft didn’t take effect in wars and conflicts
by Israeli soldiers and Generals.
I would like to know what would you do if you were the Israeli commander;
knowing rockets are being fired at Israeli towns from the UNIFIL base
that is full of civilans. I think we can both agree that if Israel wouldn’t
have responded the rocketing from that paremeter wouldn’t have stopped.
So would orders would you issue.
alexz33QATAR COMPLETES DEAL TO SELL MIRAGE TO INDIA
ABU DHABI [MENL] — Qatar has completed arrangements to sell its Mirage fleet to India.
Qatari officials said the emirate would sell 12 Mirage 2000-5 fighter-jets to India over the next few months. The officials said the agreement was finalized during the three-day visit by Qatari Emir Hamad Bin Khalifa Al Thani to New Dehli, which ended on April 15.
Foreign Minister Hamad Bin Jassim bin Jabor Al Thani said his government had completed a deal to sell India the 12 Mirage jets. Hamad did not provide details, but his statement marked the first official confirmation of the Mirage deal.
The two countries discussed the Mirage deal as part of cooperation in defense and aviation, Hamad said. He did not elaborate.
alexz33What is the cost per Unit for a the Rafale and the F-15T?
alexz33What was (is) the Task of UNIFIL?
alexz33They had been. During that week there had been four confrontations between UNIFIL and guerrillas where three peacekeepers had been wounded. The compound was filling up with civilians and then you shelled it.
If there were confrontation (and there were) why didn’t they get reinforcmnet
into the area? since it was filling up with refugee why did allow “guerillas”
into the parimeter? You can’t have a hostile military and a refugee base
at the same spot. If Israel wanted to shell the copmpound on purpose then
all 40 shells would have fallen on it not 2 (and thank god it was only 2).
You can’t seriously be comparing storming a sieged school to artillery strikes on a UN compound full of civilians?
And in war anything is allowed?
The comparison is that those that jeporadize innocent civilians are ulimatly
to blame. It was that shelling that got the Hizzbullah to stop using civilans
as shelter.
Is anything allowed in war? Great question. I think it depends on the how
low one side chooses to take the conflict. For example i don’t think the
allies would have bombed Drezden if not the intial aerial and missile attack
on London. Was soviets brutality at the end of the war motivated by rage and revenge of soldiers who lost their familes, friends and neighbors ?
Every action gets reaction espcially during war.
alexz33Again, if you look at the UN document you linked it contains the following:
The UNIFIL soldiers’ first priority seems to have been to keep the civilians safe. Sadly, the same can not be said about the IDF. The report you linked to conclude that it is unlikely that the UN compound was hit by mistake and that the IDF had a recon drone in the air.
Sadly it was a huge mistake on the UNIFIL part. Preventing hizzbullah from
shooting rockets in the first place should have been No.1 priority.
It is distrubing to read that you feel that UNIFIL is responsible for the Israeli murder of civilians because Hezbollah tried to use them as a shield. UNIFIL wasn’t perfect, but atleast they didn’t show the indiffference to who they killed that the IDF does.
I am truly shocked that you don’t see any major faults in the UNIFIL
operation. According to you theory it’s the Russian forces that are to blame
for so many people dieing in Beslan because they stormed the school,but the
terrorist had nothing to do with it. I’m sorry but your way of thinking is truly
disturbes me.
The UN document you linked to mentions this. Hezbollah didn’t give a **** either (they killed and wounded Norwegian soldiers too). My focus on Israeli attitudes was simply bacuase it was relevant to the thread.
How could the Israeli attitude and actions not be effected by the UNIFIL
and Hizzbulah attitude and actions? You do realize this was a war and not a video game.
alexz33You certainly aren’t making it more difficult for me. The IDF claimed it was an accident, but as you claim it was not I suppose killing 4 UNIFIL soldiers 102 of the civilians that had sought refuge in the UNIFIL camp is an acceptable “error” in taking out claimed hostiles located several hundred meters outside the compound? Such contempt for life…
I suggest you read the conclusion to the UN link you gave me:
“While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.”
It bothers me alot that your not concerned at all with fact that terrorist
were setting up rockets and morters in full view of UNIFIL soldiers and then
got shelter indide the compound. This effectivly make the UN fully responsible
for any action that follows and in coopoeration with terrorist organization. The Fijian soldiers even new there will be retaliation, yet they did nothing to stop the intial attack. would it be O.K. with You if the IDF used the UNIFIL
Base as a military position?
I also heard something about a UNIFIL (FIJIAN) soldiers being shot in the stomach a few day before the incident when he tried to stop a smillar attack. Do you have info about that?
alexz33Yes I’m Israeli, My post is a qoute from the Norwigian UNIFIL soldeirs site.
I saw the horrific pictures on the web, The shelling wasn’t accidental as you
sarcasticly suggest. It was ment to hit the Terrorist firebase, which BTW it did.
During the entire operation the hizzbullah fired 1,100 rockets from the UNIFIL area. Many fell short; an estimated 600 landed in northern Israel. Some of the rockets impacted in villages and towns, causing injuries to civilians as well as damage. In areas within range of the rockets, many of the inhabitants left their homes and others were evacuated.
Here is the UN report of the events after interviews with Israeli, hizzbullah and
eye witnesss.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un/s1996337.html
alexz33I’m glad to hear that. I remember a bit of anger in the Norwegian army at the time too…
Who in their right mind be happy with a tragedy like that?
The memorial stone for Gorm Bjørnar Hagen, was destroyed by some Hizbollah supporters after the occupation ended. Probably due to the fact that you can see the christian cross embedded in our national flag.
http://www.ken-tore.com/Army/NORBATT.htm
And, here is your IDF is action:
http://www.answers.com/topic/qana-massacreThe pattern of not really caring who is on the receiving end is clear.
Did you read the arcticle?
“Israeli Defense Forces unit in response to two rocket and mortar attacks launched earlier that day (towards the unit) from nearby the compound”
The refugee compound was the hizzbulah fire base with UNIFILs
knowledge.The radar ditected the location of the fire and the IDF gunners shelled the area. If anyone doesn’t care about the civilians it’s those that claim they wanted to liberate them and used them as humen shields. Dozens of Israeli soldiers died in places like Jenin and Gaza to avoid exactly what you accuse the IDF of. And yes i’m aware of innocent civilans that died and again i can easily prove to you (with pictures) which sides doesn’t care who is on the receiving end.
alexz33I always had a low opinion of UNIFIL soldiers, especialy the drunk and passed out
scandenvians at the beach in Netanya. In the army we had
specific instructions not to talk to UNIFIL soldiers about military issues since they
would pass on any info to any side for a fee.
Other incident made me think even lower of them
The incident in Kfar Kana where the UNIFIL allowed the hizzbulah terrorists
to shot katyusha rockets from the paramater of their base, caused more then a
hundread dead civilians in a return Israeli fire.
In 2001, 3 Israelis were kidnaped at the Lebanon border by disguised Hezb’Allah terrorists wearing UNIFIL uniforms and driving U.N. jeeps.
The U.N. concealed their (at least) 3 videotapes and material evidence which probably implicated the U.N. forces in aiding (by ignoring) that kidnaping.
After long denial sthe tapes were found in Kofi Annan safe.
I remember the regretable Norwegian soldier incident in 93 and there was an out cry
about it at the time as there was a favourable view of Norway at the time.
Here is your “peace keepers” in action
http://judaism.about.com/library/1_terrorism/bl_hardov_un.htm
alexz33No place for joking. Maybe a relative of the lost Dakar-crew may read this.
I don’t it was an accident. No mayday call or nothing. It’s final message
was that all is great and then it vanished for 31 years to be found
on its original course. 🙁
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