The Israelis don’t care. While I was serving in the army (Christmas 1993) an Israeli tank fired several flechette rounds on a Norwegian UNIFIL patrol and killed one soldier. The Israelis had been informed that the area was patrolled and reported back that they wouldn’t fire… yet they did.

The UN promised not to let their bases become hizzbulah fire bases towards
Israeli towns and cities, yet they did.

Please stick to the points and do not twist around. None attacks Israel, but foolish behavior. Blaming the Europeans in general without a single example to proof is redicelous to stay polite.

Did you red your own posting carefully? See your response below.

I didn’t tell you what the militery knowledge was trasfered to China,
But if you agree with me anyway, then i won’t press that point 😀

You did not delivery a single European example, but your test is simple.
Did Israel produce a single chip inside those weapons-systems?

I don’t know. If there was an Israeli IC then i assume it would be in a contract not to sell the product to certain countries hostile to Israel.

The USA bought the full production rights for missing components and know-how! Popeye/AGM 142, ARROW ….
The other way around, Israel did not. When the USA has the capacity and capability to built every part of a weapons-system inside the USA, Israel can not do the same.
Not to mention that the development of those are sponsored by uncle Sam too and some European partners, when it started with BLAZER first.
For the Navy UAV, please google under SEAMOS.

My point exactly. You sated that almost every Israeli system has US components, know you state that it’s the US that buys Israeli components.
SEAMOS is a german UAV system i don’t see a connection to Israel.
Not on topic by i just here on the radio that IAI and Elbit will sell UAV
to Turkey for $200 Million

What does it change? Israel has not to pay a single NIS for real hardware. It imported goods not to buy at the home-market most times. If Isreal has to buy all that from own money, the taxes had to be raised in Israel considerably and threaten its economy by that. We nearly forget that the USA give billions of loans too, to ease the Israel debts, which otherwise had strangled the Israeli economy too. You show, that the average Israeli has not the slightest idea how much Israel depends on outside help really.
Who sponsored the peace-agreements with the Arab neighbours. Egypt, Jordan and Palestina.
I still wish Israel, that those will not change in the future. So stop bashing your friends and do your home-work first.

Loan Guarantees are not actual money that that US gives, only a gusrntee
that they will pick up the tab in case Israel can pay, something that so far never happened. It does save on intrest.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086670/

If anything US is idolized in Israel and for good reasons. Sorry if i made you or you think that Israel spits in to the well it drinks from, but you couldn’t be
more wrong on that. The US support in tough times is more valuable then any money. Everyone here knows exactly how much we owe the US, we just don’t
want to be treated as children.
the US and i don’t only mean money

You red the answere very well.
The topic is,” why is Israel ‘suspended’ from warplane project.”
You are right, that those HARPY deal was the straw, which broke the camels neck.
The HARPY incorporates US-technology and money too. I can see, that IAI has no intrest to highlight this to the Israeli public. In normal times it does not matter. If more than 50% of a sytems-value was/is generated in Israel it becomes indigenous. Why not when it helps to bolster the national pride.
But in the case of China it becomes foolish simply.

Yes, it’s national pride. The moment the upgrade deal was anounced the entire country stoped and massive street parties have spontaneously erupted.

In times when the USA tried to force its will about China on to the Europeans.
Most of European companies had promised not to deliver weapons to China, even when the embargo is lifted. They accepted those restrictions, not to be banned by the USA from further busines in the USA.
Such European behavior is not widely published in Israel it seems to me. The reasons are obvious, when it comes to internal politics there.
.

internal Israeli politics?, publishing European behavior in Israel (you read
Hebrew?), European promises? what exactly are you trying to prove
with this barrage of non sense?

Israel claimed the USA as its most important ally, which it is of cause. But the very same Israel undermines the credibility of the USA in Europe. The details about the weapon-system HARPY are an open secret there, just to single one example out.

There is hardly to find a single weapons-system in Israel without US-technology and money. So that ball is back in Israel. I could not see that the Europeans suspended Israel from the F-35 project?! –

O.K. lets put it to the test.

1) The The TROPHY system – Active Protection for Armored Fighting Vehicles from RAFAEL and ELTA. What US components are involved? And why did
the US had to buy it from Israel if they already know how to make it?

2) Popeye (AGM-142) – What US components are there and why did they
buy it from Israel it they made it?

3) Elbits – Helmet Mounted Display and Sight Systems. What US components
went into that? or the Navy UAV from Israel.

even if there is an Israeli made capacitor or IC in a US system doen’t
make it an Israeli development.

If all that USA help in direct and indirect money is not important, why not denied by Israel at all, to become indepent from that and the related restrictions. All that help comes to ~3% of the GDP from the USA alone, and that is more as most western countries spend for their defence-budget. I can see, why you limited your exampel to direct economical aid only or did it come from another strange press info in Israel?

The economical aid example i gave, is just an example of how redicules your
charges are. If the US should get a say or a cut of all that Israel makes in the defence related field then why not have the same in other fields like software or agriculture?
Israel has many news sources, there is no state control media that tell
anyone what to think or what to day.
The help is less then 3%. All US military aid most be spent in the US on
US products.

As I wrote before, please look more carefully into your sources. Not all are correct or very limited.
What specific European weapons were delivered in the last years, that we can look into details really. (Bush-Administration-period).
Looking into JP advertisements just now, some try to collect money for hungry children in Israel. Why not help the poor? The economical situation in Israel is similar to Europe, when the debt-situation is much worse in Israel.
See value of € against NIS by that over the years.
In general I agree to your last sentence.

You lost me here. I really don’t understand your rambling.
How can you agree with me on the last sentence if i didn’t even told you
what i think is invoved?

Can Israel sell screw drivers to China? What if the next administration
prohibits the sell or upgrade of sharp objects to china?
Besides if china is so bad then why is it one biggest exportes to the US?
or why doesn’t the US recognize Taiwan as an Independent state?
And yes i got the hutzpa to point out that US is selling weapons (dual use is still a weapon) to china but prohibits Israel from doing so. I asked the question before and i’ll ask it again what difference does it make to the US
if China gets Russian or Israeli technology (and soon German and French)?

At first it is bad style to blame the Europeans and not looking into own shortcomings first. Be carefull about your sources. In the internet you can find every information that please your opinion. 😮
The first one quotes ” $260 million worth of military equipment from …” but avoid to mention a single item. 😎
The Chinese are clever enough to order dual-use goods. But it is difficult to label the Harpy as such. The Clinton administration had allowed the export of the Harpy to China. But the Bush administration is much more restrictive now.
Nothing to change about that former export, but to upgrade those at hand to a higher level is something different. Not too difficult to understand I mean.
There is a list of other customers of the Harpy, which proof that it could be exported into countries not under a weapons-embargo at least from the USA.
I can not see, that the USA was or is too restrictive about Israel’s weapons-industry. 😉
The second link is not much better. At least it mentioned “dual use goods”, but prefers not to become too specific. 😉
The US blames the Europeans and those the USA. You have the ‘hutzpe’ to blame both, when the example of HARPY shows for all to see – a weapon-system and no ‘dual use item’. 😀

It achieves that US-funded research doesn’t end up in a third country without the US benefitting from it. It’s as simple as that.

I agree on that. However the US already agreed on the sale of the Harpy
in the past. The dispute in not over a sale of New Harpy’s but of an
Israeli upgrade to chinese owned Harpys. Any US component in an
Israeli military export requires authrization from the US.
I.E. Nesher Jets to S. America with J-79 engines. If there are any US components in the Harpy then the US authorised their sale previously, outherwisethe scandal would have been back then. Get the point.

Yet those greedy europeans didn’t lift the weapons embargo on China. Besides, whatever technology the Europeans sold to China in the last decades (Searchwater radar, aerial refuelling stuff, lots more) is European technology. Designed in Europe, with European investments.

The development of Israeli military hardware is done by private investments
like Elbit or Rafael or the government like in case of IAI. I think you are
hinting that it’s the US that sponsors the development with it’s aid money.
You are wrong. Every penny of the military assisstance most be spent
in the US. US investments in Israeli military research usually means a joint
venture in which actual manufacturing will be done in the US based on
Israeli research and full rights to code and design i.e. Arrow Missile.

There is a difference between ‘military equipment’ (comms gear, vehicles) and outright weaponry. The Harpy is classified by IAI itself as a weapon.

This is precious

I think the whole issue focuses too much on Israel dealing with China – what in my eyes is far worse, is Israel claiming full authority on jointly developed projects while that authority is highly questionable. It would be much less of a problem if Israel exported Harpys or radar-technology if those were totally indegenous defense projects. But those are not: Israel’s defense is a sponsored one, and attempts like this to turn this already generous military sponsorship into rather questionable business deals are rather unthankful if you ask me.

Again, It’s not a sale but an upgrade. even if the Harpy was 100% US made
then Israel should have a problem upgrading it. Israel upgrades anythig
from a T-54 to a SU-27 without asking the Russian for permission.
And No Arthur, US sponsorship doesn’t mean we need their approval
to run our lives, nor does the US needs Israel approval to run their questionable business with many questionable regimes in the area. 😀

What’s not clear is what differance does it makes to the US if the drones are made
in Israel or Germany or France or Russia? China is getting what they want in the end and other then screwing Israel the US really doesn’t achieve anything.

The EU will keep the embargo for another year or so
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/a4001e54-addd-11d9-9c30-00000e2511c8.html

This means F-35 partner countries such as the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway as well as non parters such as France, Germany and spain can sell high tech weapons to china.

For Israel it’s not a question of profit but of independance. The US is not doesn’t concern about a “Setback” for selling F-15 sto Saudi Arebia.

The person “responsible” for the upgrade descion is Amos Yaron and he will be fired soon to please the masters.