Bager1968I know you love dragging out that UK study… but it only covered airfields the UK expected to operate its tankers from.
Does that study cover all the airfields in the US and abroad that the USAF might operate tankers from which the UK would never see?
I think not… which means there just might be a number of US National Guard tanker bases (located at commercial airports), and overseas airfields, whose taxiways (and even runways) could take the weight of the KC-767 but not that of the KC-30.
One where I live (Walker Field in Grand Junction, Colorado {near the Utah border}) is a commercial airport which normally sees MD-80/90 and B-727 traffic… but larger aircraft only in emergencies (and after they have burned off virtually all their fuel load).
It also serves as a USAF/USN/USMC cross-country refueling point (lots of F/A-18s, F-16s, etc), and sees a KC-135 about every other week.
I doubt its runway would be rated for the KC-30.
As well as the support infrastructure item you did point out… having to rebuild/enlarge many of the KC-135 hangars to take the KC-30.
Bager1968Well, among other things, the AH-1W Sea Cobra has the same engine set as the Apache… but with ~3/4 of the airframe weight, giving greater safety margins for over-water operations.
Bager1968Stuart… was that welding technique, and the TIG welders to use it, available in 1936 when the Hurri was designed? My Welding Principles and Applications says that “The aircraft industry developed the GTAW process during the late 1930s and early 1940s to weld Magnesium and Aluminum”… and that the early process used Helium (not Argon) and DCEP current… “which caused many of the early problems which limited application of the process”.
Gas tungsten arc welding (GTAW) had its beginnings from an idea by C.L. Coffin to weld in a nonoxidizing gas atmosphere, which he patented in 1890. The concept was further refined in the late 1920s by H.M. Hobart, who used helium for shielding, and P.K. Devers, who used argon. This process was ideal for welding magnesium and also for welding stainless and aluminum. It was perfected in 1941, patented by Meredith, and named Heliarc® welding.
Argon, while experimented with at the same time as Helium, only became plentiful in the mid 1940s, which helped GTAW finally become a widespread technique.
Thus, it was a state-of-the-art process, and still plagued with quality problems.
Not quite suitable for teaching the mass numbers of new mechanic recruits to perform in field conditions.
And just what would have the supply of Tungsten electrodes and Helium for shielding gas be in North Africa, Burma, etc?
Therefore, when the Hurri was designed, it was far better to bolt 531 than to weld.
Bager1968Add in the Phoenix missile as well.
I know the AWG-10 fitted in the F-4J was developed in parallel with the AWG-9, but could a AIM-54 compatable radar be fitted in the ‘Toom?
A max of only 4 Phoenix missiles would be feasable, but it would get that long-range “punch” that was really needed.
Something similar to the F-4S, with new engines, and with the AIM-54 would have done rather well, I would think.
Bager1968This “blind spot” can be edited out with “modern” processing software on scanned arrays (either mechanical or electronic), which is why the F-16 has one.
Bager1968Thanks for the info Unicorn, that was what I was looking for… actual info on what is going on.
Actually, it is a relatively minor matter from a hardware point-of-view (at least with the pump).
As a Safety issue, it is urgent, but the fix should be done fairly quickly and easily.
From what has since been posted on the forum I found that on, this is the second water-contamination issue that has come up with these boats… which does merit further investigation as to the root causes, but the pump replacement should get them back in service soon.
Bager1968There were several incidents of F-8s catapulting from their carrier with the wings still folded (at night) early in the aircraft’s career… most made a rather higher-than-normal-speed landing back aboard… but a couple either lost control at launch and crashed, or the pilot chose to takethe seat ride rather than risk the landing.
There were a couple of F-8 folded land take-offs as well, but those all resulted in landings.
This was possible because, like the F-4, over 3/4 of the lift was still present… and the control surfaces in the inboard sections were sufficient to allow control to be maintained.
The F-8 was then fitted with a nice, large warning light that showed whether the wings were “spread & locked” or folded/not locked.
Bager19681. I don’t know much about Finland, that’s why I asked “Did Finland participate”!
2. “A clear alligment with Sweden and by that back bone, Make Stalin think otherwise with his warplans.”
And just why would Sweden abandon their neutrality policy to join in an alliance whose sole reason for existing would be to commit Sweden to fighting the USSR over someone else’s territory?
3. Ok, now I know a bit more about Finland’s actions in that era… and yes, it sounds like they were a typical early 1900s nation… they did nasty things that we, now, view as unacceptable… but which were the “normal” for most nations at that time.
Judge them by what they had been taught as right and wrong, not by our current standards.
Would I like our society to go back to the way we were before WW 2? NO!
I am not sure there was any nation I would prefer to live in from that time more than I would most of the “Western” nations today. All of us have learned from our past, and most of us are much better places to live because of that. Just ask any “African-American”, “Hispanic”, “Native American”, “Asian-American”, etc if the US is a better place now for his ethnicity than it was in the 1940s.
Bager1968Revisionist: applying current thinking and views to historic decisions and actions…
example: Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Finn. The book has been ridiculed for its poor treatment of Blacks, and banned from many schools because the white Huck Finn calls his “African-American” escaped-slave friend “Nigger Jim” to his face throughout the book.
This, of course, completely ignores the fact that, when the book was written at the end of the 1800s, most white Americans used “nigger” as virtually the first name of most Blacks they encountered, and (more importantly) that the entire book is actually a condemnation of both slavery and racism!
By the end of the book, Huck decides slavery is wrong, helps Jim re-escape, and considers him a better man than most whites Huck has dealt with… but it offends modern “politically-correct speech” sensibilities, so it is depicted as a racist book, and is banned!
In this case, I would ask you to examine Finland’s actions and alternatives, rather than just its alliance with Nazi Germany. Did Finland participate in the purges and slaughter of economic & racial minorities? If not, then there is little to be degrading yourselves on on that point. As to the choice of allies, at the time, you had only three choices… all of them bad.
Try to remain neutral like Sweden (with the USSR pushing like they were, that probably wouldn’t work, and you would be fighting Stalin without a firm ally), ally with Germany (who were purging their own minorities and wanted to control Europe), or ally with USSR (who had just purged their own nearly indescriminately, and might do it again… and wanted to control Europe and at least part of Finland)… and the decision of which posed the greatest threat to the people of Finland and the rest of Europe is not as clear as modern thinking tries to make it!
Bager1968http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/newa4.html
A-4A: Weights: 8391 pounds empty, 15,093 pounds combat weight, 19,910 pounds maximum. Armament: Two 20-mm cannon with 100 rpg. plus up to 5000 pounds of ordnance on 2 underwing pylons and one centerline pylon.
A-4/B/C: Weights: 9146 pounds empty, 15,359 pounds combat weight 17,535 pounds gross, 22,500 pounds maximum. Armament: Two 20-mm cannon with 100 rpg. plus up to 5,000 lb of ordnance on 2 underwing pylons and one centerline pylon.
These all used the J65-W-16 (7,700 lb.s.t.) or J65-W-20 (8,400 lb.s.t.) [US-built Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire 100]
A-4E/F: Armament: Two 20-mm cannon with 100 rpg. Maximum weapons load 8200 pounds on four underwing pylons and one centerline pylon.
Weights: 9,624 pounds empty, 18,300 pounds gross, 22,950 pounds maximum.
A-4M: Armament: Two 20-mm cannon with 100 rpg. Maximum weapons load 8200 pounds on four underwing pylons and one centerline pylon.
Weights: 10,418 pounds empty, 18,500 pounds gross, 24,500 pounds maximum*.
Fuel for both is 900 gallons internal and up to 3 x 300 gallon drop tanks.
* from “Ships & Aircraft of the US Fleet 12th ed. (1981)’, as JBaugher lists the same MTOW for both versions.
From other sources I have seen that that is the max carrier-based weapons load, and that the max land-based weapons load for the A-4M was 9,900 lb, due to its higher-power engine.
The A-4M had the 11,200 lb.s.t. J52-P-408 vs the 9,300 lb.s.t. J52-P-8 of the A-4E/F (early A-4Es had the 8,500 lb.s.t. J52-P-6A initially, but this was replaced with the -8).
Bager1968“the F-8’s with their short legs”
F-8E (FN): Combat radius 600 miles (unrefuelled). Combat range 1,425 miles at 560 mph at 36,000 feet. Internal fuel 1,348 gallons.
With new wings (1969): Internal fuel 1,348 gallons, external fuel 600 gallons (two 300-US gallon drop tanks on the underwing hardpoints)
In USN service the wing tanks were almost never used, as the added drag nearly off-set the added fuel, resulting in little added range.
Viggen with RM8: Combat radius 620 miles [540 nm] (1,000 km); Ferry range 1,240 miles [1,080 nm] (2,000 km)
Viggen with Olympus: Combat radius 465 miles [405 nm] (750 km); Ferry range 930 miles [810 nm] (1,500 km)
Internal fuel: ? (I have no numbers for this); external fuel: one “wet” pylon (centerline), drop tank capacity ?; no in-flight refueling capability (could be added)
Now which aircraft has the “short legs”?
Bager1968“can fly up to M 2.65 without full afterburner thrust.”
80% afterburner thrust? That’s not “full afterburner thrust”, now is it?
The key feature of “Supercruise” is NOT maintaining, or even reaching supersonic speeds in level flight without using an afterburner.
The key part is CRUISE… as in “engine at cruise setting, NOT full non-afterburning setting.
Cruise setting is normally less than 80% of max non-AB thrust, and that is where you need to look to see if an aircraft can “Supercruise”!
Bager1968I loved the statement that “the US Generals are wrong about the F-22″… and bluntly saying that the USAF is lying about it in order to get more of them.
OK, I guess that the RAAF knows more about the Raptor than the USAF, and that the USAF is hiding the flaws in a substandard aircraft in order to get more of that substandard aircraft? :rolleyes:
Ok, I guess I will send that $5,000 to that guy in Nigeria so he can send me the lottery ticket so I can cash it in for $25,000,000 (he bought it while in New York on business, and can’t get back to turn it in himself, you see). 😉
Bager1968http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f8_16.html
“The French Crusader was designated F-8E(FN), where the FN stood for “French Navy”.
The quartet of four 20-mm cannon was retained, as well as the ability to carry four fuselage-mounted AIM-9B Sidewinder missiles. However, provision was also made to accommodate the French-built Matra R530 air-to-air missile, which existed in both infrared and semi-active radar homing versions. One R530 was carried on each side of the fuselage on rail launchers. Often, an infrared-homing R530 would be carried in one side of the fuselage, with a radar-homer on the other side. To accommodate the R530 in its radar-homing version, a Magnavox AN/APQ-104 radar was fitted, together with a modified AN/AWG-4 fire control system.
Over the years, the armament of the F-8E(FN) has been through several stages of upgrading. The French Crusader originally carried the Matra R530 missile, which existed in both infrared- and semi-active radar-homing versions. The Sidewinder infrared-homing missile was still compatible with the F-8E(FN), but it was very rarely carried. The enhanced Matra Super 530 was never adopted for the Crusader, since the APQ-104 radar was not compatible with it. In late 1989, the Matra R530 was withdrawn from service. In 1973, the Matra R550 Magic short range infrared-homing air-to-air missile was added to the Crusader’s armament suite. The all-aspect Magic 2 was made available in 1988, and is now the French Crusader’s primary missile armament.”
There was an upgrade program carrier out on at least 12 aircraft from 1992 on, but it did not include a radar upgrade, so they carried the APQ-104 to the end of their service.
Bager1968EMGY… google “Wright J67”, just for a laugh.
Ever wonder why Wright got out of the jet business?
The engine in the Viggen is a rather interesting one… it was an afterburning version of the Pratt & Whitney JT8D-22… itself a turbofan with a core developed from the J52 turbojet engine.
I don’t think the turbojet Oly would have been quite as suitable, mainly due to fuel economy.
RM 8A (AJ-37, etc.) 14,000 lb.s.t. (26,000 lb.s.t. afterburner); weight 4,630 lb; length 242.5”; diameter 55”; SFC .585 lbf/lbth/hr (2.47 afterburner);
RM 8B (JA-37) 16,400 lb.s.t. (28,100 lb.s.t. afterburner); weight 5,181 lb; length 245.25”; diameter 55”; SFC .60 (2.52 afterburner).
The closest Olympus equivilent would be a mk 201 fitted with an afterburner.
Mk 201 17,000 lb.s.t. (26,018 lb.s.t. afterburner [extrapolated from the boost of the Mk 320 for the TSR 2]); weight 3,600 lb +afterburner; length 126.4″ + afterburner; diameter 44.5″; SFC .80 lbf/lbth/hr (? afterburner);
Mk 320 20,000 lb.s.t. (30,610 lb.s.t. afterburner); weight 3,800 lb +afterburner; length 128″ + afterburner; diameter ?; SFC .80 lbf/lbth/hr (? afterburner)
While the Oly would have done a similar job (slightly more thrust with the mk 320), it would have used ~33% more fuel, shortening the Viggen’s range by ~25%.
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