Bager1968“We see the same confusion today with references to the Boeing F15 and British Aerospace Vulcan!!”
And with the Lockheed/Martin F-16 (designed & produced by General Dynamics before GD was taken over by Lock-Mart).
And the BEA Harrier (Hawker)/Boeing AV-8B (McDonnell-Douglas).
Bager1968Well, most of the time we didn’t carry wings or fuselage sections, but the smaller sections (flaps, vertical fins, horizontal stabilizers, etc) were normally aboard, as were enough ribs, stringers, etc to get most damaged aircraft able to do a one-time flight to a land facility.
There were, however, lots of engines and avionics units.
There was a lot of room overhead in the hangar, even with all of the drop tanks normally stored there, so wartime might be different.
We did replace the wings on our E-2Cs at sea in the Indian Ocean in late 1987… the wings were brought aboard from a supply ship using the cables run between the ships. Now that was impressive.
The only real chance to get the Viggen Navalized would have been in the 1970s, if the RN had built decent replacements for Eagle & Ark Royal, so it would still have been in production, and parts would not have been a problem.
Bager1968Unless the other two have suddenly regenerated outboard of the engines, then perhaps the Indian example is “The World’s only Complete Short Sealand”?
Bager1968First A-10 delivered in 1975, and the last new airframe delivered in 1984.
23 years since the last one was built… hard to build new ones, or even major structural components.
715 built, maximum of 250 being re-winged?
Bager1968Lets see… how long has this thing been in development?
Combining the articles on Wiki-waki and AirForce-Technology websites”
“The project began as the Future International Military Airlifter (FIMA) group, set up in 1982 by Aerospatiale, British Aerospace, Lockheed and MBB to develop a replacement for the C-130 Hercules and C-160 Transall. Varying requirements and the complications of international politics caused slow progress. In 1989 Lockheed left the grouping and went on to develop a second generation Hercules, the C-130J. With the addition of Alenia and CASA the FIMA group became Euroflag.” Wk
C-130J in service in UK, US, …
“A European Staff Target was drawn up in 1993, together with a Memorandum of Understanding signed by the governments of the seven nations. Italy subsequently withdrew from the programme. Airbus Military SL of Madrid, a subsidiary of Airbus Industrie, is responsible for management of the A400M programme. Other companies with a share in the programme are: BAE Systems (UK), EADS (Germany, France and Spain), Flabel (Belgium) and Tusas Aerospace Industries (Turkey). Final assembly will take place in Seville, Spain.
In May 2003, a development and production contact was signed between Airbus and OCCAR, the European procurements agency for 180 aircraft: Belgium seven, France 50, Germany 60, Luxembourg one, Spain 27, Turkey ten and the UK 25 aircraft. First metal cut for the airframe of A400M was in January 2005. The first aircraft is scheduled to fly in early 2008 with deliveries between 2009 and 2025. First deliveries will be to France and Turkey.
In April 2005, South Africa signed a contract with Airbus Military to be a full participant in the A400M programme. South Africa will order between eight and 14 aircraft, for delivery between 2010 and 2014. In July 2005, Chile signed a letter of intent with Airbus Military for up to three A400M. In December 2005, Malaysia signed a contract for the purchase of four A400M.
Total firm orders for the A400M stand at 192 aircraft.” AFT
So, 12 years from start of project to finalization of “staff target” and MoU, and 11 more years (23 years from start of project) to “first metal cutting”…
No, no delays at all… a rather speedy project… are you sure they haven’t moved too fast for safety?
Bager1968Lets see now… SES… called by the French AQL (aeroglisseur a quilles laterales) [sidewall craft], and “Sidewall ACV” [air cushion vessel] by the USSR.
Sweden/Norway: SES 3400 Jet Rider; 2 ~passenger ferrys, operational from 1988. Tech assist from Textron Marine Systems, USA, which passed data from the Sweden/Norway project to the US Navy for its SES Minesweeper study.
Spain; BES-16, SES research project of Bazan, CHACONSA, and the Spanish MOD. A project for a 55 meter helicopter-capable missile patrol boat (BES-50) was started in 1989.
France; many SES programs, from 1980 onward, including a 46 meter 200 ton helicopter-capable patrol boat (Gazelle/Dauphin), a 200 ton passenger ferry, a 4,000-5,000 ton “escort vessel” (2-76mm guns, 1-octuple SAM launcher, 2 quad ASM launchers, 2 twin light cannon, 2 Puma/Sea King class helicopters) or (1-76mm gun, 2 quad ASM launchers, 1 CIWS, 3 Lynx class helicopters).
Germany; MTG (Marinetechnik Gmbh) since 1984, 67 meter 700 ton SES test craft for the West German Navy; Blohm & Voss 36 meter SES test craft launched 1989.
USSR; numerous since at least 1979; including Plamya (26.1 meter 34.5 ton landing craft for 7.3 ton vehicle); a 23.5 meter SES passenger ferry since 1979; Zarnitsa, Orion, & Rassvet (details of these 3 unknown to me); Turist (250-300 seat “Sidewall ACV” passenger ferry & mixed-traffic version [10-15 cars & 100-120 passengers]); LUCH-1 (22.6 ton “Sidewall ACV” passenger ferry for river use, built by Astrakhan shipyard, trials in 1983, for service on “high-wave” rivers such as the Don, Kama, Oka, and Volga); more.
USA; 1988 USN “Intra-Theater Logistics Transport” study for a 111.25 meter 1,800 ton 45 knot RO/RO SES transport (looked a lot like the UK “Round Table” class LST/LSL, but with “high-displacement sidewalls” and inflatable cushions for beaching operations) to carry a full Infantry Battalion or tanks & vehicles up to 453,592 kg (1,000,000 pounds).
All of these craft had rigid sidewalls with inflatable bow & stern skirts.
And that’s just what I photo-copied from a ~1988 Jane’s Fighting Ships 0ver 15 years ago… imagine how many could be found now?
Bager1968Would it be possible to convert the canard to a “single-piece moving” surface, or would it need to remain fixed, with just the elevator area enlarged?
Bager1968But you ignore the fact that Anglo-American pride will not accept any explanation other than “French double-dealing” for the failure to buy either the Jaguar-M or the A-7. 😀
Personally, I think the French could have done better… but since all options (including a better SuE) would have cost significantly more, it is hard to fault the decision made.
Bager1968The only thing he was supposed to need to see was the radar display, and the lack of daylight in his “office” meant he could see that better.
Of course, the USN & USAF found that, if things got a bit close (Sidewinder range rather than Sparrow range) that the second pair of eyes looking for enemy (and friendly) aircraft was rather valuable.
Bager1968Yes, yes… the RAAF Hornets were built as A/B models… but since they have all been upgraded to a virtually complete “C/D equivilent” standard (except the -402 EPE engine, AFIK), that is how I refer to them.
Bager1968As this thread is no longer about comparing the F-105/F-106 and the Mig-23/27 in the late 1960s-early 1970s, but has instead become a shouting match over who is lying about the Gulf War, etc…
Would the mods please take control or lock this thread so we can start fresh if anyone has an on-topic comment?
Bager1968True, but operating a Tristar launch platform is, I am sure, a much cheaper timng than would be a Vulcan launch platform.
After all, Orbital Sciences IS a commercial, for-profit enterprise… not a government-run/sponsored money-pit.
And to forstall the knee-jerk screaming, I was not talking about TVOC, or any other such thing… I was referring to NASA.
If the US government was less protective of NASA’s near-monopoly on non-military space-flight in the US, the International Space Station and other manned space-flight projects would be far more numerous, and far more advanced… but the government has until recently refused to allow serious private/commercial space work.
Orbital Sciences is one of the few exceptions, but I remember when they were starting up that the US only granted them their permits to operate with a hard limit on the maximum payload size… that would prohibit any attempt at launching major satellites or a manned craft.
Bager1968Pegon…
While the Su-34 might be a good fill-in technically, there is a lot more than political leanings working against it. While the per-aircraft cost is less, every part in it would be totally new to the Aussie supply chain, as is the operation/maintenance/repair procedures and support equipment.
The cost of establishing a support infrastructure from the ground up with completely “foreign” parts, etc. for only 24 aircraft would raise the price well above the total cost involved with the F/A-18F deal.
Add in the similarity of the RAAF’s F/A-18C/D and the -F types (yes, only ~35% is interchangeable, but all of the systems etc. work the same way, with the same operation/maintenance/repair procedures, and most of the same support equipment), and the fact that Boeing already has a support infrastructure in place to complement the RAAF’s (the RAAF would have to pay for Sukhoi to do the same, either seperately or as part of the “package”), and the cost factor is well in the favor of the UberBug.
Bug Lover…
This is about the RAAF wanting 24 F/A-18Fs to “temporarily replace” their F-111s, not any plans of the USN. Different history, different plans, different requirements.
See the first post on this thread:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65916
Bager1968An enlarger is normally used in the printing phase… the negative in placed in the enlarger, which projects a focused, much bigger image onto the print paper, which is then developed to bring out the image.
Bager1968Adour variants (more non-ab not listed):
mk 102 (Jaguar) 5,110 lb (6,930 lb) [1972]
mk 104 (RAF Jaguar) 5,200 lb (7,305 lb) [upgraded mk 102, 1975]
mk 804 (International Jaguar) 5,320 lb (8,040 lb) [1976]
mk 811 (IAF Jaguar) 5,520 lb (8,400 lb) [1981]
mk 861 (Hawk 50) 5,710 lb [1981]
mk 871 (T-45 GosHawk as F405-RR-401) 5,900 lb [1990]
mk 951 6,500 lb [2002]
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