Bager1968Apologies, but a little late following this thread. Quite agree with Tangmere1940’s comment. I would have thought a wing tip touch, as per the BBC’s CGI, would have spun the aircraft around and potentially caused the aircraft to break up.
A more likely scenario would have been a good ditching with the aircraft settling level on the sea surface. Impact would have damaged/destroyed the plexiglass nose thus allowing an inrush of water from the front. The aircraft would soon have adopted a nose down attitude and with the added forward weight of the engines it would have continued to slide under water nose first. Air trapped in the rear fuselage would assist with an eventual vertical posture. Once the nose touched the seabed it would form an anchor leaving the (vertical) rear fuselage to move around with the vagaries of the tidal stream. That tidal stream effect on the rear fuselage and tail would be sufficient to gently flip the aircraft over as the air slowly escaped – so gentle that it would not break the aircraft’s back as it came to rest on the sea floor upside down. Had the tidal stream been in the opposite direction as the tail lost buoyancy, the aircraft could have been let down the right way up.
Except that, if this is the aircraft they think it is, there were two survivors who described how the ditching went.
Of course they didn’t have your superior knowledge of the physics of ditching, and thus completely mis-understood what they lived through.
I remember the recovery of the Wellington clearly and the plan was to half raise the aircraft off the bed and ‘float it’ half submerged down the loch to another part of the Loch for some reason, but they [without realizing] dragged it along the bottom of the Loch, hence all the damage.
I haven’t noticed any mention of how they will get all the sand out of the aircraft prior to lifting which will no doubt create a lot of weight and strain on the airframe. Or is this going to be a schoolboy error missed through not getting advice?
Well why don’t you rush down and use your superior intellect and knowledge to save this professional salvage company and group of professional aircraft restorers from their own stupidity and incompetence?
Bager1968Tony
Yes I understand how the airframe can be taken apart at manufacturing breaks but that assumes the original potentially highly corroded fasteners can be removed. What I meant was to cut(saw) the airframe into manageable pieces, sacrilage I know. My reasoning is that if the airframe is in a very very delicate state breaking it into manageable sections will at least mean something worth preserving will get to the museum, whereas an attempt to lift an extremely delicate complete airframe could end up in disaster. I hope I am wrong.Richard
Is there any information around as to what steps are going to be taken to stop the aircraft turning to white powder ?, would be very interested to know their plans
Here is the answer to both questions.
But Dr Mary Ryan at Imperial College London is more optimistic. She’s the scientist drafted in by the RAF Museum to find a way of halting the plane’s corrosion, and stabilising it for the long-term. Working with one small fragment already salvaged, her team have found that soaking it in a mixture of fresh water and citric acid – lemon juice – cleans the metal and stops the corrosion.
So the museum has built two polytunnels at its conservation centre at Cosford in the West Midlands, and equipped them with a system of spray nozzles. For the next 18 months the two halves of the aircraft – wings and fuselage – will be drenched in citric acid for 10 minutes out of every 30.
But first they have to get the plane out of the water in one piece. To do that, the museum turned to a marine salvage company, Seatech. They’ve designed a special frame or cradle which they’ll build around the aircraft underwater. With divers able to work for just 45 minutes four times a day at slack water – when the tides change and the strong current on the Goodwin Sands temporarily slows – it will take them up to four weeks.
Then they’ll lift the frame with the plane inside, lay it on a barge alongside and take it ashore to go by road to Cosford and its long lemon juice bath.
Bager1968And carried about 6x the external ordnance load.
Bager1968I take it they’re going to pump out as much silt and sand as possible before it breaks the surface? If not I fear the weight of all that lies within will tear it apart as soon as gravity takes over.
The item to be considered is the weight of structure in water versus it’s weight in air.
I hope that the people actually doing and planning the lift are taking all the instruction received from the experts on this forum and treating with the “gravity” it deserves.
Yes the aircraft components are subject to degredation due to the fluid they have been submersed in and will need conservation and treatment to slow down the subsequent effects of being exposed to air but from what I have seen and heard quite a bit of preliminary work has been done before the planning stage and reviewed before the lift.
Ross
No. they’re just going to sling a couple of straps and hope for the best.
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But Dr Mary Ryan at Imperial College London is more optimistic. She’s the scientist drafted in by the RAF Museum to find a way of halting the plane’s corrosion, and stabilising it for the long-term. Working with one small fragment already salvaged, her team have found that soaking it in a mixture of fresh water and citric acid – lemon juice – cleans the metal and stops the corrosion.
So the museum has built two polytunnels at its conservation centre at Cosford in the West Midlands, and equipped them with a system of spray nozzles. For the next 18 months the two halves of the aircraft – wings and fuselage – will be drenched in citric acid for 10 minutes out of every 30.
But first they have to get the plane out of the water in one piece. To do that, the museum turned to a marine salvage company, Seatech. They’ve designed a special frame or cradle which they’ll build around the aircraft underwater. With divers able to work for just 45 minutes four times a day at slack water – when the tides change and the strong current on the Goodwin Sands temporarily slows – it will take them up to four weeks.
Then they’ll lift the frame with the plane inside, lay it on a barge alongside and take it ashore to go by road to Cosford and its long lemon juice bath.
Bager1968https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/20130423-uk-us-defence-equipment-cooperation
In the above speech British defense procurement minister Philip Dunne says “We are currently working together through the Big Safari Group in rapid-prototyping a UK weapon, Brimstone, on a US platform,”.
There was an article on defensenews.com that stated “Dunne, on his first trip to the US as procurement minister, didn’t mention the platform the weapon was under consideration to equip, but a number of sources have confirmed that the Reaper is the focus of attention.”
However, that article has been removed from the website.
Bager1968The flying boat at the beach is definitely a HU16. It is at Playa Ventanilla in Mexico. A Google search throws up some more pics and story. Apparently a drug traffickers, it was brought down by the Mexican military around 10 years ago. All survived, the plane was full of marijuana.
Note the remains of a fuselage attached to the center section of the wing… the Catalina had the wing mounted on a narrow pylon above the fuselage, and the engines were much closer together*.
I agree with the C-82 ID… the C-123 had a different nose shape with much larger forward windscreens.
* as in this pic of a Catalina on a beach in Saudi Arabia.
http://taylorempireairways.com/2009/08/derelict-pby-5-catalina-strait-of-tiran/
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And, inspired by the car in Australia, here is a jeep I photographed in May 2010 from the AMTRAK (passenger train) in the Colorado River flood channel between Palisade, Colo. and Rifle, Colo.
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Bager1968Lots in museums and as “gate guards”, none flying.
Wiki lists the following:
Aircraft on display
A-5A
146697 – Patuxent River Naval Air Museum, at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland. It is the oldest Vigilante on display and the only one still in its original A3J/A-5A nuclear attack bomber configuration.[14]
RA-5C
149289 – Pima Air & Space Museum in Tucson, Arizona. It was transferred from long-term storage at nearby Davis-Monthan Air Force Base and it carries the markings of RVAH-3.[15]
151629 – Pueblo Weisbrod Aircraft Museum (formerly the Fred E. Weisbrod Museum/International B-24 Museum) in Pueblo, Colorado. It has been restored and currently displays the markings of RVAH-7 while assigned to Carrier Air Wing 9 aboard USS Enterprise.[16]
156608 – Naval Support Activity Mid-South, formerly Naval Air Station Memphis, Tennessee. It was the last operational RA-5C aircraft and it carries the markings of its last squadron, RVAH-7, during its final deployment with Carrier Air Wing 2 aboard the USS Ranger in 1979.[17]
156612 – Naval Air Station Key West, Florida and it stands as a gate marker just inside the main gate. It carries the markings of RVAH-3.[18]
156615 – Castle Air Museum at the former Castle Air Force Base, California in 2012. This aircraft was formerly located on the Mojave Test Range. This particular RA-5C was the last Vigilante to land aboard the aircraft carrier USS Ranger while assigned to RVAH-7 in August 1979 during the last Vigilante deployment.[19]
156621 – New York State Aerosciences Museum (ESAM) in Glenville, New York. It was initially on display at the former US Naval Photographic School at NAS Pensacola, Florida. In 1986, it was shipped up the East Coast by barge and placed on display aboard the USS Intrepid Museum in New York City. In 2005, this RA-5C was acquired by ESAM. The aircraft suffered minor damage to its fuselage aft of the wing root while being moved from the aircraft carrier Intrepid to a barge while supported by slings. It is currently (as of 2010) undergoing restoration for display. It carries the markings of the RA-5C Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS), RVAH-3.[20]
156624 – National Naval Aviation Museum at NAS Pensacola, Florida. It is displayed in the markings of RVAH-6 per that squadron’s final cruise with Carrier Air Wing 8 aboard the USS Nimitz in 1978.[21]
156632 – Orlando Sanford International Airport (formerly Naval Air Station Sanford) in Sanford, Florida. It was placed there on 30 May 2003 as a memorial to A-5 and RA-5C aircrewmen and support personnel who served at NAS Sanford. On loan from the National Museum of Naval Aviation, the aircraft was transferred from the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) Weapons Division at Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, California and is marked as an RVAH-3 aircraft.[22]
156638 – Naval Air Station Fallon, Nevada. It was transferred from Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, California and was previously marked as an RVAH-6 aircraft in a Vietnam-era jungle camouflage paint scheme, as an RVAH-12 aircraft in traditional Cold War gray/white paint scheme, and currently as an RVAH-7 aircraft in traditional gray/white paint scheme.[23]
156641 – USS Midway Museum in San Diego, California. It carries the markings of RVAH-12.[24]
156643 – Patuxent River Naval Air Museum, at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland. It was transferred from NAS Key West, Florida, and is displayed as a test aircraft operated by the Patuxent River Flight Test Division in the 1970s. It was the last RA-5C built.[25]
As of 2004, all RA-5C airframes previously stored with the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona, have either been scrapped or relocated, with some of these aircraft expended as ground targets in aerial bomb and guided missile tests. A small number of RA-5C airframes in various states of condition are currently stored at Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, California.
Bager1968Except that is NOT CVN-78 Ford! It is an earlier Nimitz-class CVN.
Note the 4 deck-edge aircraft elevators, one aft of the island on the starboard side.
Now note the arrangement of Ford… 3 deck-edge elevators, NONE aft of the island in the starboard side!
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Bager1968Aviation Week has a story that the USN is planning to test the CV-22 for the COD mission. Their C-1s are getting old.
I’d guess since the NG E-2 is in production, why not just build a new fuselage?
Lockheed Martin has been doing a program with rapid prototying and limited production of aircraft. Their test bed is a Dornier 328 with a totally new fuselage.
A new COD fuselage would be a great project…very limited production with a proven wing and powerplant installation.
USN C-1s were retired in the mid-1980s.
They use C-2s… which already are the E-2 main wing & tail assembly with a rear-ramped larger-diameter cargo fuselage.
Yes, about half of the C-2s are of late 1970s-mid 1980s vintage (the others are mid-1990s) and are approaching mandatory retirement due to airframe fatigue issues (not easily rectified for carrier aircraft).
Hence the new-build program referred to by Fedaykin.
Bager1968USMC (and Argentine) A-4s refuel(ed) just fine from C-130s.
C-1 Trader Cruise speed 150 mph (240 km/h) [130 knots]; Maximum speed 287 mph (462 km/h) [250 knots] with 2 × Wright R-1820-82WA Cyclone 9-cylinder radial piston engine, 1,525 hp (1,137 kW) each and 3-bladed props.
Likely the same with turboprops, as the Turbo Trackers (S-2T) saw no increase in maximum speed (nor a decrease either).
Bager1968Too bad that A-6E Intruder is incomplete. Where’s the FLIR turret?* 😀
I see by the bolted-down fuselage speed-brakes it is an A-6A upgraded to A-6E configuration.
*It should have one of these installed:
Bager1968To me it looks like a machinist’s practice piece.
Practicing drilling & countersinking holes in soft sheet metal, practicing using a hammer & die stamp to place permanent letters on the sheet. Note the A, B, C next to the top 3 holes.
Bager1968Surprising that their colour scheme makes them stand out, unusual for a covert operation vehicle?
Actually it’s camouflaged quite well because it operates from normal airports.
It looks just like any other regional airliners.
Or low-key corporate aircraft, or charter, or rich guy’s private air-taxi.
Bager1968More importantly… was your mind your own?
😀
ps: tried to find a less-childish emoticon than the options present on this new version of the board, but gave up and used a standard.
Bager1968Aboard USS Ranger CV-61 in 1985-87, there was always a guy with a garbage bag walking back & forth along the “fod-walker” line, collecting everything we picked up.
Nothing was ever thrown over the side, stern, or bow.
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