Bager1968I also didnt think the Saipan was that much larger….. she must of been a derivative of the Baltimore class.
Yes… while the Saipan class (2 ships, Saipan & Wright) were designed from the keel-up as carriers, the design process started with the hull and propulsion plant of the Baltimore-class heavy cruisers.
Bager1968I think it is very likely J-15 can be modified for catapult launch. It’s just adding provision for a hold back bar I imagine?
And for the attachment of the catapult shuttle to the nose gear.
IF the nose gear is strong enough to handle the force… remember, you have enough pull at the outer end of the nose gear leg to pull the entire loaded aircraft forward at ~6Gs… that’s a lot of force.
Then the fuselage where the nose gear attaches has to be strong enough, and the forward fuselage has to be attached to the center fuselage well enough… all of this with strain directions opposite of those experienced by land-based aircraft.
This is one of the main reasons that catapult-rated aircraft tend to be purpose-designed, not adaptations of designs created for land-only use.
Or is it your belief that the Chinese will use a form of bridle launch?
Bager1968The only advantage the Independence class has was that they were faster.
The 1942 light fleets were wider, longer, could be refit with angled decks and could carry more aircraft. These advantages result from the 1942 Light Fleets being specifically designed as aircraft carriers from the start, from memory the bass hull of the Independence class was a cruiser design (Cleveland class?).
The Independence class were significantly smaller… perhaps the only Vietnam-era jet fighters they could reasonably operate, even if fitted with an angle deck, would be the proposed (but not built) Sea Gnat.
The British Colossus/Majestic class light fleet carriers are better compared to the American Saipan class CVLs.
Independence-class CVL (USN):
Displacement: 11,000 tons (standard); 14,750 tons loaded
Length: 622 ft 6 in (190 m)
Beam: 71 ft 6 in (21.8 m) hull; 109 ft 2 in (33.3 m) over flight deck and projections
Saipan-class CVL (USN):
Displacement: 14,500 tons (standard); 19,000 tons (full load)
Length: 684 ft (208 m)
Beam: 76.8 ft (23.4 m) (waterline); 115 ft (35.1 m) (overall)
Colossus-class CVL (RN):
Displacement: 13,200 tons (standard); 18,000 tons (full load)
Length: 690 ft (210 m) (flight deck); 695 ft (212 m) overall
Beam: 80 ft (24 m); up to 133 ft overall with angled deck
Majestic-class CVL (RN):
as Colossus except Displacement: 15,750 tons (standard); 19,500 tons (full load)
Centaur-class CVL(RN):
Displacement: 22,000 tons (standard); 28,700 tons full load
Length: 737 ft (224.6 m)
Beam: 130 ft (39.6 m); up to 160 ft overall with angled deck
Bager1968That’s still 3 times that of CVF.
Nuclear powerplants and steam-powered propulsion turbines need more personnel than do diesel and GT powerplants & electric propulsion.
Follow that with the need for more support personnel for both the much larger air-wing complement as well as the larger shipboard part of the aircraft maintenance support staff and the other shipboard staff.
Bager1968Does that mean while on holiday in the US or Canada you may have to fill your rental car’s tire with air.
But returning to the UK, you may have to do the same with your tyre?:DIn other words…When in Rome…?
If, while in the US, you write of a tyre, either they’ll not understand at all or they’ll think you are referring to the ancient Lebanese city.
Similarly, a bonnet is worn on the head of a baby or female in old costume, not found on a car… a boot is worn on the foot, not found on a car… and a lift is what someone gives you in a car, you use an elevator to move up or down in a building or ship.
Bager1968A couple of points; Pearl is in fact a place name, Pearl city, Pearl island etc, (just south of Honolulu) when you hear
the Americans refering to “Pearl”, they are not abbreviating, that is the location.
The Hawaiian flag is an amalgamation of the British and US flag, the union jack, replacing the stars; the spoken language is English (American dialect).
I fixed it for you. 😀
Bager1968Well, from not only that article, but also other things I’ve read, it seems the RN is basically deciding not to “re-invent” a unique British way of handling flight deck ops, but rather to copy as closely as possible the way the USN is doing things (with an eye on the French for anything they do better).
In many ways, this will make things a lot easier, as they can get USN aid in training personnel for most of the procedures and processes.
As for the “manpower gap”, the USN is itself changing things up somewhat. While they will still have more ship’s crew aboard than CVF, the CVN-78+ class CVNs are to have only about 2/3 of the ship’s crew that the Nimitz class CVNs do… just over 2,000 vs the ~3,200 of CVN-65, & CVN-68>77.
Bager1968To be fair to the RAF, they had a squadron of Buffaloes on standby to cover Prince of Wales and Repulse, but Admiral Phillips never asked for them. They were sitting on their airfield when they could have broken up the Japanese attack. Sadly the whole Malaya operation was marked by quite outstanding levels of incompetent leadership by all three services.
So, just when should Adm. Phillips have “asked for them”… all 15 or so of them?
At the start of the sortie… when he got about half-way there… at dawn… when he turned around?
Whenever he asks for them, it will take time for them to arrive over Force Z… and the closer they are to the Japanese the shorter the time the Buffaloes can spend protecting the RN ships.
In reality, the attack started at 1115, and the Co of Repulse called for aid shortly after that, but the 10 Buffaloes sent didn’t arrive until sometime just after POW sank at 1325 (Repulse sank at 1235).
That’s a flight time of around 2 hours… in order for them to have been over Force Z near the beginning of the attack, they would have to have been called long before the attack started.
As the first sign the Japanese aircraft were in the area was at 1030, when they attacked the RN destroyer Tenedos, which was operating separately, even if they had been called for right then they wouldn’t have arrived until around 1230… when Repulse was sinking, and POW had received multiple torpedo hits, was disabled, and was starting to sink.
However, Adm. Phillips had received this on the evening of the 8th… “The only real issue of note being a signal sent from Singapore by Rear Admiral Palliser to Admiral Philip’s Flagship, indicating air cover would not be available on December 10th, the day Force Z would be under greatest threat of attack from Japanese warplanes known to be in Indo-China.”
Thus, Adm. Phillips believed that there were no Buffaloes to call for… and neither did Capt. Tennant, who had sent this message to any British man-o-war (NOT to the airfield at Singapore), stating: ”Enemy Aircraft Bombing My Position”.
That there were Buffaloes available to be sent was not what Adm. Phillips had been told less than 2 days before.
Bager1968I think those suggesting working up with the aid of the americans or French understimate how different QEC will be from Nimitz or CDG. With such a massively smaller complement many of the practices will have to be very different, even without considering the different cultures of the 3 navies that have a marked difference on how they approach many activities.
…..
The pilots may be able to learn from our allies, but the crew running the carrier, deck operation etc are in many cases going to have to start from first principles. Especially with it being CATOBAR rather than STOVL
Quite a task.
LSO School Welcomes Royal Navy Chief
Paddles Monthly August 2011
For the third time in as many months, the U.S. Navy Landing Signal Officer School played host to yet another flag officer from a foreign navy. On this particular occasion we had the pleasure to welcome Admiral Sir Trevor Soar, RN. Admiral Soar commands all deployable fleet Royal Navy units, including the Royal Marines. A career submariner, Admiral Soar‟s visit to the LSO School was part of a comprehensive tour of NAS Oceana as the Royal Navy continues to broaden its exposure to American carrier aviation methods. As many are already aware, the United Kingdom is returning to the fixed-wing carrier aviation business after several decades of operating only Harriers from its current fleet of flat deck ships.
Currently, the British are deep in the development and construction of the HMS Queen Elizabeth and then subsequently the HMS Prince of Wales. By the end of the decade, the Royal Navy plans to be conducting fixed-wing carrier launch and recovery operations from these two ships using the F-35C version of the Joint Strike Fighter. Understandably, the Landing Signal Officer is a key piece of the puzzle that they must develop in order to stand up an effective carrier aviation program.
Over the course of the past few months, the LSO School has been actively assisting the RN with everything from the proper development of an LSO program to effective flight deck layout. This visit follows other official visits from both the Brazilian CNO as well as the Commandant of the French Naval Aviation Command. Over the course of the next few years, Landing Signal Officers across the fleet should not be surprised to be involved in assisting various foreign militaries as they look to develop carrier aviation programs.”
Bager1968However, folks are b%tching about that as well… claiming he wasn’t “hero enough”, or that “it was a political vote-grab and ignores RAN naming traditions”… etc.
Bager1968Already the Japanese are hyping a Chinese “threat” and to many Chinese this means that Japan intends to keep China weak so that the option of attacking the Chinese mainland is viable.
No, the Chinese are actually doing provocative acts with naval ships near Japan (and elsewhere), and claiming total control (in opposition to International Maritime law) of open ocean vital to the interests of Japan and its neighbors.
Japan is merely reacting reasonably to acts of aggression and threats perpetrated BY CHINA!
Bager1968Most boiler plates had certain aspects working representatively which they were intended to test cheaply, they just abbreviated the rest to save cost. The Shuttle Enterprise is considered a boiler plate by some sources.
Aerodynamically and structurally representative of the planned space-capable shuttles, but itself never intended for launch… no functional engines or systems for them (just lumps of weight to match the real things), not vacuum-rated, materials not capable of withstanding the heat of stresses of re-entry, etc.
Bager1968A hearty welcome to HMAS Claude Choules L100
Moderators please note: This is an official Royal Australian Navy press release on the official RAN website, and is thus a government announcement on a government web-site, NOT a copyrighted media story!
http://www.navy.gov.au/Naming_of_Ex_RFA_Largs_Bay_-_HMAS_Choules
Today at Fleet Base West the Prime Minister and the Minister for Defence announced that the ex Royal Fleet Auxilliary Landing Ship Dock Largs Bay is to commission into the Royal Australian Navy as HMAS Choules.
Many of you will recall that former Chief Petty Officer Claude Choules passed away in May of this year, our centenary year. He died in Perth at the age of 110. This was a significant moment when the world lost its last living link with those who had served in WW1.
Claude Choules was born in England two days after the birth of Australia’s Navy in March 1901. Like the ship that will bear his name, Claude started his Naval service in the Royal Navy, in his case in 1916. He came to Australia on loan in 1926 and soon decided to transfer to the RAN. He was a member of the commissioning crew of HMAS Canberra (I) in 1928 and in 1932 became a Chief Petty Officer Torpedo and Anti Submarine instructor.
During WW2 Claude was the acting Torpedo Officer in Fremantle and the Chief Demolition Officer on the west coast. He transferred to the Naval Dockyard Police after the war so that he could continue to serve, He finally retired in 1956.
In thinking about our past during our centenary year I have been struck by the stories of the tens of thousands of everyday Australians who have made the Navy what it is today. While we honour individual acts of heroism, these others also deserve some form of recognition for their service. In naming the ship after Claude Choules we not only acknowledge his forty years of service in peace and war but the contribution of all who have faced the unremitting hazards of the sea and the challenges of conflict in the last century. The naval service demands endurance and self-sacrifice and, by its nature, much goes unseen. The Navy’s history has included many fierce battles but it is also marked by the patient and devoted patrol, surveillance and escort work which has ensured that Australia and its allies have been able to use the sea to achieve victory. Our sailors past and present have gone about the vital work that we do without fuss or fanfare, often in extreme danger, generally under less than ideal conditions but always with their own unique combination of humour and devotion to duty. Claude Choules, as much as any, epitomises this tradition.
The pennant number of HMAS Choules will be L100, further reinforcing the link to the centenary of the Royal Australian Navy and those who have served in it throughout our history. HMAS Choules will be an exceptional addition to the fleet. The ship will commission in Australia later this year.
Vice Admiral Ray Griggs, AM, CSC, RAN Chief of Navy
Bager1968A hearty welcome to HMAS Claude Choules L100
http://www.navy.gov.au/Naming_of_Ex_RFA_Largs_Bay_-_HMAS_Choules
Bager1968OTOH, the PLAN did have the problem that they had to develop at least part of the equipment from scratch (landing sight, arresting gear, jet blast deflectors).
Not entirely… they had the JBD, arresting gear, and landing array from HMAS Melbourne, and the landing arrays from Kiev & Minsk to work from.
I’m sure they are working on a catapult as well… perhaps derived from the one from HMAS Melbourne, and perhaps either something derived from plans of USN catapults obtained “clandestinely” or an electromagnetic design based on technology developed internally and guided by experience with the Siemens-built maglev trains in China.
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