Bager1968The J-20 is a single-seat, twin-engine aircraft, bigger and heavier than the Sukhoi T-50 and the F-22. Comparison with ground-service vehicles points to an overall length of 75 ft. and a wingspan of 45 ft. or more, which would suggest a takeoff weight in the 75,000-80,000-lb. class with no external load. That in turn implies a generous internal fuel capacity. The overall length is close to that of the 1960s General Dynamics F-111, which carries 34,000 lb. of fuel.
This, combined with the front-aspect-emphasized RCS reduction, makes me wonder if this is NOT a “stealth fighter”, but rather a “stand-off missile platform” with good penetration-strike capabilities… something like a newer, more stealthy Su-34 or F-111*.
We should be wary of trying to force-fit this aircraft into a pre-conception based on what the US and Russia have/are building… this is designed for Chinese needs.
High among these needs are the ability to penetrate the highly-defended airspace of Taiwan and destroy its command/communication/network centers and its missile sites… and to attack USN carrier groups coming to the aid of Taiwan.
* in its original F-111A/F-111B dual-version concept, but modern electronics allow the roles to be combined into one version.
Bager1968What did the F-4 have over the F-104 that made it a better ac. After all they both had the J-79 engine(s). One had a gun, stubby thin wings and a T tail, while the other had no gun, bent wings and a tail that looked like it was falling off. Other than the second seat and maybe some updated electronics, why was one a much better plane then the other.
dave
F-4 vs F-104S (only BVR-capable version of the Starfighter)
F-104S: 1 x J79; maximum 2 AIM-7 Sparrow (later Aspide 1A, an Italian development of the AIM-7E) & 4 AIM-9 Sidewinder (normally 2/2 or 1/1).
F-4: 2 x J79; 4 AIM-7 Sparrow & 4 AIM-9 Sidewinder (with external fuel tanks and/or other weapons if desired)
The F-4 can carry more A-A missiles than the F-104S, at a much greater range, and with additional weapons.
Bager1968President Obama has very little say on what is or is not purchased for the US Military. The purse strings are in fact in the hands of the US Congress. Which, is now controlled by the Republican Party. That is very Pro-US Military. Which, is not to say we won’t see Defense Cuts. Just that what the White House wants and what it gets. Are two very different things. Hell, the President has been trying to cancel the C-17 and GE F136 for the last few years. Yet, they both keep going strong.;)
The Republicans only control the House… Democrats are still in control of the Senate, as well as the White House.
In short I’ve seen no Political will to cancel the F-35B and the USMC is in very high favor at the moment. The odds are virtually nil in my book……
Please remember that it was the Republicans (Pres. G. W. Bush & a fully-Republican-controlled Congress*) who originally capped production of the F-22 at 187… all Obama & the Democrats did was to formally order the production line closed.
OSD restructured the F-22A acquisition program in December 2004 and December 2005 to free up funds for other priorities. In December 2004, OSD reduced the program to 179 F-22As to save about $10.5 billion. This budget decision also terminated procurement in 2008. Then in December 2005, OSD changed the F-22A program again, adding $1 billion to extend production for 2 years to ensure a 5th generation fighter aircraft production line would remain in operation in case the Joint Strike Fighter experienced delays or problems. OSD also added 4 aircraft for a total planned procurement of 183 F-22As.
On 17 January 2008 the Associated Press reported that the Defense Department’s planned FY2009 budget request would include four additional F-22A Raptors beyond the current contract. In a letter to lawmakers, Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England stated that “the department is planning to keep the F-22 production line open” by requesting four more F-22s to replace un-specified “war-related losses” of other aircraft, increasing the total buy to 187 aircraft.
* until January 2007 both halves of Congress were under Republican control
In short the problems with the F-35B will be resolved and the USMC will acquire the aircraft.
BTW Let’s also not forget that the F-35B* will provide the cornerstone of Future Naval Aviation for Italy and Spain in the coming decade. Which, is an extremely important part of the US Alliance with Western Europe.
*Note: Several countries have expressed interest in the F-35B for Small Carriers and Amphibious Ships.
I agree that the F-35B will be de-bugged, and enter production. Exactly how many the USMC gets, and whether the Marines are forced to buy some F-35C as well remains to be seen.
Bager1968Except for the Marines taking over the 400 slot in every carier wing.
Except that there are currently only 3 carrier air wings with a Marine fighter squadron… out of 11.
Bager1968Well, I doubt many believe the numbers will increase for WVR Kills vs BVR Kills. Really, with Sensor Fusion in the F-22 and F-35. The odds are they will be able to engage more often than not from BVR. Unlike the Gulf War which often had to close within Visual Range before they could fire.
Ummm… they were perfectly capable of engaging from BVR in the Gulf war… the only reason they “often had to close within Visual Range before they could fire” was because the rules of engagement required them to visually identify their target before they were allowed to fire!
This has been brought up repeatedly in this thread… and in virtually every account of the air war over Kuwait/Iraq that has been printed!
Even with increasing numbers of aircraft being fitted with IRST etc, it is likely that the political leadership will continue to require “positive identification of the target as hostile” before weapons can be fired in all but an “all-out war” scenario, requiring even F-22/F-35 to close to WVR before firing in the vast majority of cases.
Bager1968The article actually raises the more pressing issue of deck skills and the fact that the RN has no flightdeck personel who have recent experience of CATOBAR operations.
Funny, the RN currently has pilots assigned to Super Hornet Squadrons as we speak………
Note that they were talking about “deck-handling skills” and “flightdeck personnel”, NOT pilots.
Which is why, in my post above (#1474), I said:
All they have to do is, around 2016 or so, extend the current pilot exchange/training program with the USN to include flight deck personnel (especially trainees for the “throw & catch” jobs).
Get one full set of personnel fully up to speed by 2018, and then they will form the core of that part of the commissioning crew, and can train the rest of those needed.
No problem whatsoever!
Bager1968Which is why they are grounded too.
It seems the suspected cause was engine-related, thus the grounding of both fleets.
Bager1968Hmmm…
A3-114: Mirage IIID; Delivered 07/12/73 to RAAF at Avalon with installed ATAR 09-C5 Engine CAC108. To 2OCU 19/12/73. Crashed 10/08/76, 1 nm north of RAAF Williamtown, NSW Undercarriage malfunction; port undercarriage collapsed on touchdown. Aircraft subsequently climbed away and crew ejected at 1,000 ft and 240 kts with only minor injuries. Crew; FLGOFF G.D.Shepherd and PLTOFF B.R.Wood. RAAF Ejection number 48.
No wonder photos are hard to come by… 3 years & 3 months from delivery to destruction.
Bager1968EVERYTHING WORKS.
Possible problems in the UK would be runway length and airspace…here in the USA its still possible to work with ATC when your plane climbs at 25,000fpm and you don’t want to wait to climb…..
We have had a few talks regarding the F-8….but would be interested in figuring out if it was possible to make the plane a bit bigger….we have a few noses and ideas…but need a backer with a similar dream….is it the ultimate in jet battlebird cool (besides an F-105F/G?)
Ahhhh… one can dream, can’t one?
Bager1968Actual production of most bio-fuels uses nearly as much energy as it produces… while fossil fuels (oil, gas, coal) produce far more energy than is used in collecting, transporting, and preparing them for use.
Bager1968All they have to do is, around 2016 or so, extend the current pilot exchange/training program with the USN to include flight deck personnel (especially trainees for the “throw & catch” jobs).
Get one full set of personnel fully up to speed by 2018, and then they will form the core of that part of the commissioning crew, and can train the rest of those needed.
No problem whatsoever!
Bager1968Service of Skyhawk with Indonesia
In November of 1979, Indonesia purchased 14 surplus A-4E and two TA-4H Skyhawks from Israel for the Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara. They were assigned the TNI-AU serials of TT-0401 through TT-0414 for the A-4Es and TL-0415, TL-0416 for the TA-4Hs. The aircraft became operational in Number 11 Squadron (SkU11) at Hasanuddin Air Base near Ujung Pandang. The Skyhawks replaced Soviet aircraft that were aging and very largely idle because of the lack of spare parts.
Three years later (1982), an additional 16 surplus A-4Es were purchased directly from the U.S. After refurbishment at Indonesian expense, the latter Skyhawks became operational, beginning in 1985. These planes were assigned to number 12 Squadron (SkU12) at Pekanbaru Air Base, Riau Province. The TNI-AU serials were TT-0431 through TT-0446.
As of November 1992, the Indonesian Air Force was operating 28 A-4E Skyhawks in the two squadrons. In 1996, all Indonesian Skyhawk operations were consolidated in SkU11 at Hasanuddin.
The territory of East Timor was absorbed by Indonesia during the late 1960s, but this was opposed by a long series of guerilla conflicts. Indonesian Skyhawks were active in action since 1982 in anti-guerilla operations in East Timor and in Papua New Guinea. Attrition has taken its toll and only a few of the A-4Es and TA-4Hs remain operational. By now, the tasks of the Indonesian A-4s have been taken over by BAe Hawks that were originally ordered in 1978.
Two additional TA-4Js were purchased from the USA in 1999 and, after upgrading in New Zealand, became operational in October of that year. The Skyhawks have a dual attack and reconnaissance role, and can carry VICON 70 or Minipan camera pods.
Bager1968Note that some info on this site hasn’t been updated for a while… like the line at the end of this entry about the likely replacement of Singapore’s A-4s.
Service of Skyhawk with Singapore
In 1972, the government of Singapore purchased 40 A-4Bs that were in storage at MASDC at Davis Monthan AFB in Arizona. They were refurbished by Lockheed Air Service to meet the particular requirements of the Singapore Air Force. This include the installation of the 8400 lb.s.t J65-W-20 turbojet, which was 20 percent more powerful that the earlier J65-W-16A. The wing lift spoilers of the later A-4F were incorporated. The 20-mm Mk. 12 cannon were replaced by 30-mm Aden cannon, and a Ferranti lead-computing optical gunsight was installed. A brake chute was added to reduce the landing roll. The communication electronics was replaced by more up-to-date equipment. Two additional underwing stores positions were added, bringing the total to 5. The aircraft were redesignated A-4S.
The first eight conversions (RSAF serials 600 to 607) were done by Lockheed at Ontario, California. The A-4S made its first flight on July 14, 1973. They were delivered to NAS Lemoore, California, where the initial training for RSAF Skyhawk crews was carried out. The remaining 32 conversions (RSAF serials 608 to 639) were performed by Lockheed Air Services of Singapore, using A-4B airframes that were shipped to Singapore.
Lockheed also produced a unique two-seater as part of the conversion contract. It was thought that it might be a good idea to standardize on the same engine for both single- and two-seat Skyhawks, and rather than convert factory-built two-seaters (which were all powered by J52 engines), Lockheed decided to modify J65-powered single-seat A-4Bs and turn them into two-seaters. This was done by adding a 28-inch fuselage plug and a second seat. However, unlike all of the other two-seat A-4s, a separate clamshell canopy was provided for the second crewman. The second canopy was immediately adjacent to the air intakes, and was raised in order to provide a better view. This modification was designated TA-4S. Seven A-4Bs were so modified, and were given the RSAF serials of 651 to 657.
The RSAF was quite happy with their A-4S aircraft, and ordered 70 more in 1980. To create these, A-4Cs were withdrawn from surplus stocks and shipped to the government-owned Singapore Aerospace Maintenance Company for rebuilding. These planes were modified in much the same manner as the earlier A-4Ss, but they retained the original 20-mm cannon, the shorter nose, and the straight inflight refueling probe of the A-4C. Another 16 A-4Bs were acquired for conversion into eight TA-4S two-seaters. They were issued to Nos 142 (Gryphon) and 145 (Hornet) Squadrons at Tengah, with No. 143 (Phoenix) Squadron acting as the training squadron.
In a major upgrade program in the mid-1980s, the RSAF fitted its A-4S versions with a new engine, an non-afterburning General Electric F404-GE-100D turbofan. The thrust of the engine was 10,000 lb.s.t, about 29 percent greater than that of the earlier J65. In addition, the fuel consumption was lower and the maintenance was easier. This version was designated A-4S-1. It first flew on September 19, 1986. The A-4S-1 became operational with No. 143 Squadron in 1988.
A second phase of the RSAF Skyhawk upgrade program involved an attempt to enhance the operational capabilities of the A-4S. A GEC-Marconi 4150 heads-up display was installed, a Litton LN-92 ring laser gyro inertial navigation system was added, and the aircraft was given the ability to launch the Maverick air-to-ground missile. The port side of the air intake had an extra air intake for an engine-mounted accessory drive. GEC Marconi was given the contract for the upgrade after Lear-Siegler had been ruled out because of technology transfer difficulties. The single-seat aircraft were redesignated A-4SU, the two-seaters TA-4SU, and were referred to as “Super Skyhawk”. They re-entered service with No. 145 Squadron in early 1991, and became fully operational in February of 1992. in 1988.
Thr RSAF Skyhawk training unit (No. 143 Squadron) was disbanded in late 1997. Their planes were shipped to Cazaus Air Base in southwestern France, where RSAF No. 150 Squadron was set up to train pilots. This site was selected because it gives pilots access to bombing ranges and airspace over the North Atlantic.
The Black Knights RSAF flight demonstration team occasionally flies A-4SUs, drawn from Tengah-based units. The team has the unusal strategy of operating dissimilar types at the same time– currently the team operates four A-4SUs and two F-16s.
The RSAF Skyhawks will probably continue to serve until 2003, when they will probably be replaced by F-16s.
Bager1968I don’t know if you’ve seen this site… while there isn’t a lot of info, it gives a summary, and sometimes lists airframe construction numbers… that might help you do further research:
http://www.joebaugher.com/usattack/newa4.html
To start:
Service of Skyhawk with Malaysia
The Tentara Udara Diraja Malaysia (TUDM, or Royal Malaysian Air Force) ordered 88 surplus Skyhawks (25 A-4Cs and 63 A-4Ls) in 1980. The TUDM wanted these planes refurbished into 54 single-seaters and 14 two-seaters. However, the US government placed a temporary hold on the sale, and escalating costs due to inflation resulted in a cut in the order to only 40 aircraft.
Grumman Aerospace at St. Augustine, Florida was given the contract to perform the rework on the TUDM Skyhawks. The rework included a complete rewiring, plus two extra underwing hardpoints similar to A-4E and later Skyhawks. A refurbished J65-W-20 engine was fitted. Updated electronics were also fitted, includding the AN/ARN-118 TACAN, a SAAB RGS-2A lead computing weapons sight, a Lear Siegler altitude heading reference system, and an AN/ARC-164 UHF transceiver. The A-4Cs were fitted with the dorsal avionics hump. A drag chute was installed below the tailpipe. A new canopy was fitted, which was bulged at the sides. Provisions were made for the aircraft to carry the AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missile and the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile. In the end, Grumman modified 34 aircraft. They were assigned the designation A-4PTM (where PTM stood for Peculiar to Malaysia). The first A-4PTM flew for the first time on April 12, 1984. The A-4PTMs were assigned the TUDM serials of M32-07 to M32-40.
Six A-4C/A-4L airframes were converted into two-place Skyhawks. This was done by inserting a 28-inch plug into the fuselage. Canopy and tandem seating arrangements were generally similar to those of the Douglas-built TA-4s. These planes were designated TA-4PTM. The TA-4PTM featured five underwing pylons. The first TA-4PTM took off on its maiden flight on August 28, 1984. The six TA-4PTMs were given the TUDM serials of M32-01 to M32-06.
Deliveries began in 1985 and were completed by February 1986. They served with Nos 6 and 9 Squadrons, both based at Kuantan. Their service with the TUDM was quite brief. In 1989, it was announced that they were gong to be withdrawn from service and replaced by British Aerospace Hwk Mk 298s in late 1994. Six Skyhawks were retained as tanker aircraft, using a centerline Douglas D-704 external buddy tank
By September 1999, the TUDM Skyhawks were no longer operational, and were derelict at the Royal Malaysian Air Force Base at Kuantan. Their future is uncertain.
Bager1968I would be most interested in your generous offer Bager 1968😀
I will PM you my email if that’s ok!Regards
Pioneer
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