Yes, price similar to a 4th generation, that will happen… with divine intervention.

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:rolleyes:

Again, for the slow kids in the class, you are comparing a plane at the very beginning of its production run to a plane at the very end of its production run.

F-35 costs have already dropped dramatically and will continue to do so. Fighter jets are not cars. You don’t just roll out a new model year and go. The F-35 has to establish a massive new multi-national supplier base and a new production line.

This really shouldn’t be that difficult to grasp, but then I guess everything is relative….

More fuel for the fire….

Giving 4th generation fighters a 5th generation edge

EPAWSS incorporates a fully integrated, multi-spectral EW suite that will feature sophisticated jamming, integrated digital RWR/ geo-location and electro-optical/ IR threat detection and decoy capabilities.

Once fully integrated, EPAWSS will extend the service life of the F-15 Eagle to 2035 and will provide superior protection for our warfighters against advanced ground and air threats.

Based on advanced technologies from the F-35, Falcon Edge and the Air Force’s recently awarded Electronic Attack Pod Upgrade Program (EA PUP), Northrop Grumman’s EPAWSS solution marks an entirely new paradigm for approaching electromagnetic spectrum challenges. By building on economies of scale from existing production lines, EPAWSS helps offset the rising costs of developing an EW system, while providing for an incremental funding approach to future technological enhancements.
Northrop Grumman EPAWSS features

Integrated EW receiver and exciter functions
Fully digital channelizers and processing
Integrated radar warning, ESM, situation awareness, geo-location, passive ranging, self-protection and support jamming capabilities
Capitalizes on more than $1 billion in RF and IR self-protection technologies that will be applied in the quickest, most cost-efficient manner possible
Maximizes use of resources already in the jets and applies these resources to construct a superior F-15 hardware system.

EPAWSS is Northrop Grumman’s sophisticated, cost-effective and reliable solution for the 21st century.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/EPAWSS/Pages/default.aspx

At current levels 2-2.5 times less would mean that a competing aircraft would need to cost between 50-60 million a pop flyaway with full avionics and engine…The 180 million price tag is not FLYAWAY and includes spares, extra engines, support and integrating costs, training, simulator etc etc etc …

The 4th generation aircraft would also need some pods, tanks, etc.

SpudmanWP, you do realise that this is Slowman/InternationalPirate you’re asking for a source from?

I wouldn’t bother wasting your time.

Indeed, most of his ‘sources’ originate between his own ears.

The fixation on despicable, :dev2: evil :diablo: “profit” is both hilarious and distrubingly sad.

Hilarious because some have no idea what it is or how it is derived, and sad because their lack of understanding apprears to be the result of long-term programming using propaganda.

Do MMA posters realize the profit for selling F-22s and F-35s is about 7% of sale price? Not 70% or 700%, but a measley 7%? And that profit is verified by DCAA who reports all aspects of cost performance to the USG and Congress. There are no “hidden profits” or fees to find their way into Swiss bank accounts because that results in prison time. And taxes and R&D expenses are paid out of those profits before they are distributed to stockholders (typically employee pension funds).

So let’s compare profits of :diablo: evil :dev2: American defense businesses with other commercial businesses.
Your local grocer will typically make 5-7% profit.
Your local restaurant will typically make 10% profit.
Your local petrol station will make 2% profit while his wholesaler makes 3-5% profit.
The establishment which sold your telly typically makes 10-20% profit.
Most investment bankers will not touch a startup business unless the business plan shows an ROI of 25-30%.

And the US isn’t the only seller of military jets. Don’t like F-35s or F-15/16/18s? Go buy Typhoons, Rafales, Gripens, SU-30s or MiG-35s! Nobody is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to buy F-35s.

Hilarious that evil :diablo: Lockheed or :dev2: Boeing or :diablo: Raytheon or :dev2: General Dynamics tricked Saddam into attacking Iran and later Kuwait! 😀 Or those same companies tricked Jihadists to act out on 9/11, Madrid or 7/11. All for “profit”.

Actually, it is quite sad that intelligent persons can be programmed into believing such tripe.

Humanity has always sought to create explanations for phenomenon that it didn’t truly understand. In ancient times these explanations would often take the form of various gods, spirits, prophesies, omens, etc…

Today that same mode of thinking is still employed, but the more likely explanation is vast implausible conspiracies…where brilliant evil masterminds act behind the scenes to drive world events as they wish.

You can see a lot of that in Rii and others’ “explanations” about events that are beyond their ability to explain logically. In their worldview the US acts as a sort of evil boogeyman, misbehaving all around the globe in various ways, always for “profit” or to steal oil, or for some other simplistic reason.

In this elaborate fantasy world the US doesn’t protect allies, it holds them hostage and forces them to do its bidding. Its allies don’t buy US military equipment or host US forces because they wish to, it is because the US is forcing them to behind the scenes… etc etc. No matter what happens the US is basically the villain.

Going back to the silliness about the bombing during the Korean War… the North launched a massive per-meditated invasion of the South with the intent of subjugating them beneath the same odious Communist system.

The US, South Korea, and many others, fought back with the weapons and tactics that were in use at the time. Thanks to the effort and sacrifices of many thousands of foreigners South Korea today is a prosperous democratic state and its people are free to speak, gather, emigrate, innovate, prosper or fail… while North Korea today remains a primitive nation that pours most of its limited means into weapons so that it can threaten its neighbors with destruction.

The US hasn’t always done the right thing, and not everything the US has done has turned out as it intended… but defending South Korea from the North was unquestionably the right decision and one that has benefited the whole of the world.

And in the absence of hard information to the contrary, you assume that F-35 is competitive with J-20 despite observed deficiencies in thrust, airframe size, radar aperture, and likely deficiencies across kinematic regime more broadly. You assume that —

— the Chinese are incapable of matching the achievements of glorious Americans re: AESA, EO DAS, etc even though systems can evolve over lifespan in contrast to F-35 deficiencies which are integral to airframe.
— that Chinese have made some serious conceptual error along the lines of that which was made with F-35.
— or even that the Chinese are completely incompetent and that J-20 has the range of an F-5, the speed and agility of a B-52, and the avionics of an F-105 Thunderchief. We don’t have HARD DATA so maybe it is true. :rolleyes:

This is precisely what I meant by complacency.

Blah blah blah… nobody is saying anything of the sort and this whole discussion would benefit from an increased maturity level on your part.

The US has been anything but complacent. That is why it has plans in place to field nearly 3,000 5th generation fighters, and that is while retaining some 4th generation aircraft.

The US does have a wide lead on the Chinese in avionics, that is just a fact. Another fact is that the US has no intention of holding still.

Yes, I make the assumption that China can broadly approach American levels of systems performance and integration over the coming decades. And yes, I dare to look decades into the future — as should anyone who proposes to build a modern combat aircraft.

You ‘dare’ huh? People ‘dared’ to make a bunch of unrealistic assumptions about what the Soviets would do back in the day. I doubt you were alive for it, but people like you ‘dared’ to make a lot of assumptions about the Mig-25 that proved… less than accurate.

The Chinese have made great strides, but they are also a very long way from being competitive with the world leaders, and as always, the world leaders aren’t holding still.

Sure, the Chinese may match the US in avionics, stealth, jet engine technology, etc. They may also match the Germans when it comes to building luxury cars… they may match Intel when it comes to microchips. They may put Airbus and Boeing out of business. Maybe they will start producing better wines than the French and Italians. They could push Hollywood and Bollywood aside. They could beat out Microsoft, Google and Apple… Could be they will push the New Zealanders and Aussies out of the sheep business, why not? Is there anything they can’t do?

Lets not underestimate the Chinese. Lets just assume they will dominate every industry, every technology, every field of the arts and science, all at once… 😮

Nope ! The F-22 was capped because a project that replaces thousands of fighters would provide more JOBS to more STATES and therefore would be more popular with the politicians. This is why despite the USAF and LMA demonstrating money saving they could not purchase more fighters even within the cap.

That isn’t really the case. The primary reason the F-22 was cancelled was because there just wasn’t that great a need for it. Ultimately the Pentagon leadership asked themselves just how many F-22s they really needed…. and the answer was that ~180 was enough. That combined with the rest of the US’s forces was deemed more than sufficient for any threat in the coming years.

Meanwhile there were other capabilities that were needed much more badly. (The F-35 being one example.) If something really unexpected happens the F-22 could be returned to production, presumably with a lot of F-35 avionics incorporated into it.

I am not saying that the Kinematic performance of the F-35 is stellar. What i am considering is the overall effectivness of it as a weapons system and what it provides the USAF and USN as far as capability upturn. Stealth and mission flexibility (Varients) has meant that some of this performance is traded off, yet we know nothing about how the J-20 performs. WE SIMPLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT. It could have an advantage when it comes to all out agility, but the F-35 could easily have advantage elsewhere…You are only considering the weakest point of the F-35, while you do not even know what the WEAKEST POINT of the J-20 is. That to me is an unfair comparison. While people dismiss the F-35 based on its kinematic performance, they readily assume that the J20 is at par or better elsewhere and superior in kinetic performance thereby prooving to be a better weapons system. I am sorry i cannot buy this argument. I do not know J20’s range, Its supercruising speed and range on a typical 5th gen profile (Internal bays etc). I do not know what its radar is, how well its development and testing is progressing, i do not know how many operational AESA’s China has onboard its fighters, I cannot peg their advancement with any reference when it comes to AESA or targetting and integrated sensors. Sorry i cannot evaluate without known NOTHING other then pictures.

People posting on messageboards tend to try to reduce fighter aircraft to sports cars. The primary reason they do this is because it is something they think they understand, even if they generally don’t.

“Well, this plane is faster, but that one is ‘more maneuverable’ I guess I would go with faster….”

Then when they see that the real experts aren’t doing what they would do (buying F-35s for instance…) they invent conspiracy theories.

Lol… have they teamed up with Iran?

My understanding is that they hope to team up with Saab.

Turkey eyes replacing F-16s with locally produced fighter jets by 2023, Turkey’s defense undersecretary said yesterday.

“We’re working on the conceptual design of a new fighter jet that will replace our F-16 fighters,” Defense Industry Undersecretary Murad Bayar said yesterday on the sidelines of the two-day International Air&Space Power (ICAP) Conference being held in Istanbul.

Recently, Turkish arms manufacturer TAI has signed a technical assistance deal with Swedish Saab on technical assistance to build a fighter jet, as Daily News reported.

…

Recalling that Turkey had been one of the partners in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) consortium that builds F-35 fighters, Bayar said the roles of the new model to be developed and the F-35 would be different. Therefore, new fighters will be configured as air-to-air planes and they will complement each other with F-35s.

Defense sources had told to Daily News that the program was exposed to the risk of a prolonged conceptual design and this would make the whole project “not very meaningful.”

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-to-replace-f-16s-with-local-jets.aspx?pageID=238&nID=43867&NewsCatID=374

So based on this it sounds like what they are shooting for is a light-weight air to air oriented fighter to compliment the F-35. Technically, as usual, the biggest question will be finding appropriate engines.

Interesting to think that Europe’s first 5th generation fighter may actually come from Turkey. 😎